So stressed - landlords are wanting us to pay for issues I don’t believe are our fault

[PinkLadiApples]

Hi, I really hope someone may be able to help me, will try to keep this readable.

We live in a flat above a restaurant, the entire building is owned by a lady who lives locally and she uses an estate agents to manage it. We moved in 3 months ago.

Last week, the people in the restaurant complained that suddenly every time we flushed the toilet, used the taps, the washing machine or the shower, water and toilet waste was coming through to them. We stopped immediately and called an emergency plumber out, who identified that the toilet pipes had become blocked and the reason was my partner was using flushable toilet wipes and they’d built up and caused this.

We were without access to our toilet, shower, washing machine and all taps for 5 days because various plumbers didn’t bother turning up, plus a builder and drain unblocker were needed to fix this. It was a huge massive job which was incredibly stressful and we had to use the restaurant downstairs toilet and sinks which was very kind of them.

That first night it happened, they had to close, understandably, and they’ve lost a lot of money from bookings. They’re a small independent family run restaurant so I realise this was a huge deal to them.

The narrative throughout these past few days was that it’s basically all our fault for using these wipes, the owner was hinting at this several times and said we’d hear from the estate agents soon. I should add, the area we live in is very very old and we’re actually in a listed building, she told us that pipes here extremely old and narrow and not like most places. However no one told us that when we moved here.

So today we’ve had an email saying the responsibility of all this is fully ours, and we’ll be invoiced soon for not only the plumbing and builder bills but for all lost income of the restaurant. We’ve checked our tenancy agreement and it just states we have to take reasonable precautions not to cause pipe blockages. Nothing about these particular pipes being extra narrow or old.

When we’ve said the toilet wipes packaging says it’s “Certified fine to flush” they’ve said everyone knows not to trust that, but I didn’t know!

If anyone knows where we stand legally please let me know, I’d be so grateful.

But doesn't everyone now know that wet wipes are not flushable and bad for the sewers,

Thick toilet paper is different.

Sorry OP but it was your partner's fault

I might just keep posting this link at intervals to the 'yes but they're baaaaaaad and you're stupid' brigade

www.water.org.uk/policy-topics/managing-sewage-and-drainage/fine-to-flush/

I think you are not at fault. You flushed flushable wipes. It's clearly old plumbing. I'd be willing to bet its happened with other tenants. The fact it says this in the tenancy agreement is suspicious.

You don't have anything to pay them. Tell them all they will do if they pursue this is make you bankrupt. They won't get money. Write a letter saying it's not even clear that it was you that caused the problems given you have only been there 3 months and it's clearly old plumbing and maintenance is landlords issue.

Tell them you do not accept financial liability. It is between them and the landlord for building insurance and business interruption insurance. If the restaurant don't have BI insurance that is their problem not yours.

The landlord needed to warn if there was a problem with the plumbing that could give rise to blockages.

I'd flush wipes if they said flushable.

I've lived in other places or stayed in other places that says please do not flush tampons etc.

Then look to move ASAP. Tell them that their behaviour is unreasonable. Speak to CAB and shelter. You poor souls I hope you resolve this.

You are being preyed upon. The landlord and restaurant sense weakness. Make it very clear they are barking up the wrong tree.

They can't sue people who have nothing and expect it to cover their costs!!

As pp's have said, this is not your fault. Your landlady should have insurance to cover this type of issue and the restaurant should have business contingency insurance.

Don't admit liability and don't pay anything.

CAB may have a list of local solicitors who will give you a free 30 minute appointment.

Re the wipes-it does say to flush one at a time on a full flush.

Your landlord is pulling a fast one, they should have home insurance (you should have contents insurance) and the restaurant should be insured for loss of earnings.

You did not purposefully cause the pipes to block and I imagine if you was to get a survey of the pipes it will be full of limescale which likely caused the blockage (I had the same issue in new pipes and no wipes, it happens)

There’s some shocking “advice” in this thread. This is entirely for your landlord to sort with their buildings insurance and the restaurant to sort with their insurance. Even if you had contents insurance, it wouldn’t cover this, because plumbing is a building issue.

Sorry if already posted but I saw someone post this the other week on here, you spray toilet roll to use instead of flushable wipes. There are cheaper ones on Amazon too :)

Opps Wype - Toilet Wipe Alternative - Hypoallergenic, Vegan and Cruelty Free - Flushable and Biodegradable www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08F2PW9MP/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_i_1TNW82VSF7QZHQ6C42XB?psc=1&_encoding=UTF8&tag=mumsnetforu03-21

@Snowiscold

There’s some shocking “advice” in this thread. This is entirely for your landlord to sort with their buildings insurance and the restaurant to sort with their insurance. Even if you had contents insurance, it wouldn’t cover this, because plumbing is a building issue.

Contents insurance can pay for damages caused by negligence if it includes liability cover

OP don’t pay anything (or say anything accepting that it was your fault) until you’ve spoken to a lawyer and had a big think. There is no rush.

As I see it, the legal issue is whether (a) you were in breach of contract or (b) negligent. A key question is: “would a reasonable tenant have known that there was a risk of damaging the pipes by flushing washable wipes?” and also “was it reasonably foreseeable that if there was a pipe blockage the restaurant would have to close?” It is for the people asking for money to prove that the answer to both of these questions is yes. It is not as simple as “the law says you have to pay” or “the law says you don’t”. No one can be sure what the legal position is here unless they take it to court and a judge decides.

If I was a lawyer and you were my client, I would be denying liability but making a without prejudice offer to settle the case for the cost of the plumbing repair. No way would I accept any liability for lost restaurant earnings. Where is the restaurant’s insurance policy? Where is the landlord’s buildings insurance policy? If their position is that flushable wipes are unsuitable for any UK plumbing, then why aren’t they suing Sainsburys, I’d ask them. If the pipes are fragile and unusually narrow, then why was this not stated in the tenancy agreement and why is there not a sign above the toilet saying flushable wipes must not be used (I’ve seen this sign in many many restaurants)? Sure you flushed the wipes but you had zero control over when plumbers attended or what plumbing had been done in the past or when and for how long the restaurant was closed. A lot of things happened here and it is not as simple as sending you a bill. But, this is not legal advice and I am not a lawyer (anymore).

I have never bought a pack of wipes in my life. , they are there on shelves everywhere, wipes for this,wipes for that, and people still flush the wrong ones down toilets all the time.causing blockages in toilets and sewers etc.. I am just wondering how people survived for years and years, until the dawn of wipes.

I never use wipes for anything now. So bad for the environment

The landlord should have buildings insurance. You can offer to pay the excess but it's probably too late as he should have notified his insurers as soon as the incident happened

So who do you think is responsible if your not???

Yes the landlord and restaurants insurances will pay ( and restaurant insurance will pursue landlord's insurance) but if the tenant is deemed to be at fault they will then pursue the tenant under the terms of the tenancy agreement which says she needs to take reasonable steps not to block pipes. The question of whether they have will be a matter of fact and would be decided by a court were the insurance company to pursue the tenants because of the phraseology used in the tenancy agreement.

@Parkermumma07

So who do you think is responsible if your not???

The landlord and his shitty old pipes!

Our tenancy agreement as landlord has no mention of not blocking pipes. Does any standard tenancy agreement have that specific clause? Reasonable care and attention is usually a clause.

It's 100% an insurance claim for the restaurant and the landlord. We rented out our flat a few years ago, had landlords insurance, buildings insurance and insurance to cover damage to contents e.g flooring, kitchen etc. You would only need insurance to cover your own contents like tv, belongings etc. Please see CAB if parties are trying to make you liable.

I'm surprised you have caused a blockage in 3 months with flushable wipes, how can they prove the people before you weren't flushing wet wipes? There's no evidence you caused it I wouldn't pay

Get in contact with shelter for advice, this all seems a bit dodgy to me

I don't think the op is legally at fault or responsible for paying here.

Yes, most people know not to flush any sort of wipes ... but not everyone knows that. They were certified safe to flush. We cannot assume that the op and her partner know anything above and beyond the packaging.

The landlord will have insurance; for the property and for the running of her own business/liability.

The restaurant will also have insurance, although I doubt their insurers will pay out and will likely refer to the landlords insurance.

If you did not receive a specific warning (in writing) about the pipes being very narrow and not tolerating "flushable" products, the. You weren't to know. Yes, yes, most people still wouldn't have done it, but that is not the point here.

Don't pay op!!!!

key question is: “would a reasonable tenant have known that there was a risk of damaging the pipes by flushing washable wipes?” and also “was it reasonably foreseeable that if there was a pipe blockage the restaurant would have to close?”

I would say no and no.

Another one to say you used the wiped correctly and had not been made aware the pipes can be a problem. Fault lies with the landlord imo.

Pay for the plumber but not the Lost business. I think it's unreasonable of the landlord to come after you for that.

Have you read the reviews on the Sainsbury's site? Many people saying they have blocked their pipes. They shouldn't be selling them.