So stressed - landlords are wanting us to pay for issues I don’t believe are our fault

[PinkLadiApples]

Hi, I really hope someone may be able to help me, will try to keep this readable.

We live in a flat above a restaurant, the entire building is owned by a lady who lives locally and she uses an estate agents to manage it. We moved in 3 months ago.

Last week, the people in the restaurant complained that suddenly every time we flushed the toilet, used the taps, the washing machine or the shower, water and toilet waste was coming through to them. We stopped immediately and called an emergency plumber out, who identified that the toilet pipes had become blocked and the reason was my partner was using flushable toilet wipes and they’d built up and caused this.

We were without access to our toilet, shower, washing machine and all taps for 5 days because various plumbers didn’t bother turning up, plus a builder and drain unblocker were needed to fix this. It was a huge massive job which was incredibly stressful and we had to use the restaurant downstairs toilet and sinks which was very kind of them.

That first night it happened, they had to close, understandably, and they’ve lost a lot of money from bookings. They’re a small independent family run restaurant so I realise this was a huge deal to them.

The narrative throughout these past few days was that it’s basically all our fault for using these wipes, the owner was hinting at this several times and said we’d hear from the estate agents soon. I should add, the area we live in is very very old and we’re actually in a listed building, she told us that pipes here extremely old and narrow and not like most places. However no one told us that when we moved here.

So today we’ve had an email saying the responsibility of all this is fully ours, and we’ll be invoiced soon for not only the plumbing and builder bills but for all lost income of the restaurant. We’ve checked our tenancy agreement and it just states we have to take reasonable precautions not to cause pipe blockages. Nothing about these particular pipes being extra narrow or old.

When we’ve said the toilet wipes packaging says it’s “Certified fine to flush” they’ve said everyone knows not to trust that, but I didn’t know!

If anyone knows where we stand legally please let me know, I’d be so grateful.

@clarrylove

Have you read the reviews on the Sainsbury's site? Many people saying they have blocked their pipes. They shouldn't be selling them.

One person says they blocked their pipes. The other reviews say they could. Some of them are old and pre date the Fine to Flush initiative

@JesusSufferingFuck22

We rent a flat in an area where all the pipes are really narrow. We tell tenants when they move in not to flush anything other than toilet paper. We had one episode where the tenants had ran out of toilet paper so had used kitchen towel. We paid for the repair. We're not wealthy landlords by any stretch of the imagination but we had enough money at the time to pay for it. The tenants couldn't afford toilet roll at the time! They denied they'd used it but there was evidence. We have building insurance, the tenants have contents insurance. The landlord should have told you about the pipes. I think they are responsible for the leak.....unless your partner flushed tons of wipes in one go. Even so, as others have said, the restaurant should have insurance for this type of thing too.

Wow you are extremely generous and kind landlords, in your situation you’d given a warning not to flush anything other than toilet roll, AND your tenants were flushing something that is clearly not suitable for flushing. In that instance I’d have said they were in the wrong, but it’s sad they couldn’t even afford toilet paper.

Yes I wish we’d known in advance about these pipes and had some kind of warning put in the tenancy agreement.

This thread has got rather too large for me to read all the replies but I wanted to come on, as a solicitor (specialising in family law though) to say that all those so confident that you are liable may well be wrong and I'd be wondering what their legal qualifications were.

You would have a duty of care, potentially, to the restaurant, but that is not certain. All those saying you are liable simply because you caused the problem do not understand the basis of civil liability in this country. You would have to be found to have been negligent first of all, and the court would have to determine that you have a duty of care to the restaurant. The restaurant would have their work cut out proving this.

You say the landlords didn't tell you the pipes were unusually narrow. You had no way of knowing, and took reasonable care by ensuring the wipes used were "flushable." Don't make any more offers to the restaurant - in fact tell them that you need to take advice.

@tara66

Your problem is surely that if you do not resolve the matter of the cost caused by your wet wipes blocking old sewage drains to your LL's satisfaction and do not pay the bills, he is likely to try to get you out a soon as he can. If DH's requires a bidet why did you not rent property that has one? I was also aware of the general warning never to flush any wet wipes and that they are very bad for the environment (because they do not degrade easily) . Why don't you take Saintsbury's to court and/or send them the bill? If they say theirs are degradable and can be flushed - make a claim.

Oh yeah I’m sure they’ll try to get us out asap now, which is upsetting. Unfortunately we had to leave our last house in an emergency due to it being found by the council to be unsafe to live in, so we literally had to take whatever we could find that would accept universal credit. We were told we could go on the council list or be housed in emergency hostels - as homeless people would be etc, but with my health issues (which include severe anxiety) we wanted to at least try to find somewhere first. Luckily we did, but looks like we’re out of luck with that now and will be back to square one again!

I don’t think many places have a bidet built in, I might be wrong though. The only person I’ve ever known who had one was a millionaire who lived in a 6 bedroom mansion.

Op I know someone who blocked the pipes with fat from cooking. Landlord paid to have drains sorted and didn’t charge tenant just told them not to do it again. When they did it again the landlord served them notice but still didn’t come after them for money.

That’s the normal response it’s what landlords insurance is for.

Tell the landlord there’s no way you could afford £5k and to go to their insurance.

@writingonpaper

Just flicked through more of the thread. Some posters are being really unreasonable. Its not good saying ' everyone knows they aren't flushable' when clearly not everyone does. People who listen to news and current affairs a lot might, but they are hardly everyone.

If they are advertised as flushable it is entirely reasonable to believe that - especially from a reputable supermarket like Sainsbury's.

The people who are really at fault here are bloody Sainsbury's. They are the one's misadvertising their product! The tenant, landlord and restaurant are just unfortunate victims of misleading advertising here!

Yes I would agree with this, and thank you for the kind comments

However, Sainsburys are maintaining that their Fine to Flush certification covers them, and to be fair, the official water.org website confirms they’re safe to use. Also the poster who’s DP is a plumber says they’re fine IF there’s a modern and functioning plumbing system.

It’s all so stressful! Seeking legal advice today.

Has your landlord told you that you have to pay? They will have insurance as will the restaurant, do not offer to pay.

@woodhill

But doesn't everyone now know that wet wipes are not flushable and bad for the sewers,

Thick toilet paper is different.

Sorry OP but it was your partner's fault

I can promise that I didn’t know. I did actually assume they wouldn’t be ok, until my partner showed me the pack after he bought some, I saw the symbol and he googled it and read an article about what exactly that symbol means. He was also extremely careful to only flush one at a time on full flush as instructed. The last thing we’d want is to cause any toilet blockages by being careless. I’m an anxious person who worries about upsetting people (partner less so), and I even feel guilty making ANY noise at all when the restaurant is open so try not to walk around much or play music or have the tv loud etc. I’m extremely considerate of others feelings, to a fault…this is one of my flaws, I am not bragging lol, I hate this about myself!

So I can promise that we acted in good faith.

Also the plumber told me that as well as these wipes causing problems, thick toilet paper IS a huge massive issue when it comes to blocking pipes, he said the Uk sewer system is generally not equipped to deal with anything other than the very thin, cheap stuff. He told us not to buy Andrex or any luxury brands - which we don’t anyway, we already use the economy stuff. He said things like the Bloo attachments you put on the toilet bowl and other cleaners are also problematic because they’ll erode the pipes.

@plantastic

Yep, I'm a landlord and I wouldn't expect tenants to have buildings insurance. We have really comprehensive landlord insurance that covers all that.

If I was your landlord I'd be annoyed but go through the insurance. I wonder if they're not insured and trying to pull a fast one?

That’s interesting, I hadn’t even considered that. It’s good to hear from landlords on here as well to see how they’d act in this situation. The agency that manages the building on behalf of the owner has multiple branches of their company and are extremely professional in their conduct, I’d be really surprised if they don’t have insurance but you never know.

[quote Clymene]I might just keep posting this link at intervals to the 'yes but they're baaaaaaad and you're stupid' brigade

www.water.org.uk/policy-topics/managing-sewage-and-drainage/fine-to-flush/[/quote]
Thank you yes, it’s a great link!! It definitely helps to illustrate why we thought it was safe to flush these.

@ZenNudist

I think you are not at fault. You flushed flushable wipes. It's clearly old plumbing. I'd be willing to bet its happened with other tenants. The fact it says this in the tenancy agreement is suspicious.

You don't have anything to pay them. Tell them all they will do if they pursue this is make you bankrupt. They won't get money. Write a letter saying it's not even clear that it was you that caused the problems given you have only been there 3 months and it's clearly old plumbing and maintenance is landlords issue.

Tell them you do not accept financial liability. It is between them and the landlord for building insurance and business interruption insurance. If the restaurant don't have BI insurance that is their problem not yours.

The landlord needed to warn if there was a problem with the plumbing that could give rise to blockages.

I'd flush wipes if they said flushable.

I've lived in other places or stayed in other places that says please do not flush tampons etc.

Then look to move ASAP. Tell them that their behaviour is unreasonable. Speak to CAB and shelter. You poor souls I hope you resolve this.

You are being preyed upon. The landlord and restaurant sense weakness. Make it very clear they are barking up the wrong tree.

They can't sue people who have nothing and expect it to cover their costs!!

Thank you, I appreciate this reply a lot. I had wondered if it had happened before, but they estate agents told us yesterday that the flat has been rented out for many years and they have never had a plumbing problem like this until we moved in 🙈 So I’m taking it to mean that we absolutely did cause the problem, however whether we are at fault is a different matter which is what the dilemma of it all is.

And yes you’re right, if they want to bill us for it all, especially the lost earnings, it’s going to take a long time as we just don’t have it.

Thank you again, we’ll try to get some good advice today.

@Thirtytimesround

OP don’t pay anything (or say anything accepting that it was your fault) until you’ve spoken to a lawyer and had a big think. There is no rush.

As I see it, the legal issue is whether (a) you were in breach of contract or (b) negligent. A key question is: “would a reasonable tenant have known that there was a risk of damaging the pipes by flushing washable wipes?” and also “was it reasonably foreseeable that if there was a pipe blockage the restaurant would have to close?” It is for the people asking for money to prove that the answer to both of these questions is yes. It is not as simple as “the law says you have to pay” or “the law says you don’t”. No one can be sure what the legal position is here unless they take it to court and a judge decides.

If I was a lawyer and you were my client, I would be denying liability but making a without prejudice offer to settle the case for the cost of the plumbing repair. No way would I accept any liability for lost restaurant earnings. Where is the restaurant’s insurance policy? Where is the landlord’s buildings insurance policy? If their position is that flushable wipes are unsuitable for any UK plumbing, then why aren’t they suing Sainsburys, I’d ask them. If the pipes are fragile and unusually narrow, then why was this not stated in the tenancy agreement and why is there not a sign above the toilet saying flushable wipes must not be used (I’ve seen this sign in many many restaurants)? Sure you flushed the wipes but you had zero control over when plumbers attended or what plumbing had been done in the past or when and for how long the restaurant was closed. A lot of things happened here and it is not as simple as sending you a bill. But, this is not legal advice and I am not a lawyer (anymore).

Thank you so much for this amazing reply!

@1forAll74

I have never bought a pack of wipes in my life. , they are there on shelves everywhere, wipes for this,wipes for that, and people still flush the wrong ones down toilets all the time.causing blockages in toilets and sewers etc.. I am just wondering how people survived for years and years, until the dawn of wipes.

I often wonder how many of us survived for so long without mobile phones and computers, and yet here we are!

I guess some of us have different needs than others maybe. We don’t have many luxuries at all, I don’t buy wipes for anything else and we are careful about the environment and care about climate change. We don’t have cars and don’t go anywhere really. We have one (adult) child. We recycle as much as we possibly can and are conscientious about our impact on the environment around us.

You say that people STILL flush the wrong wipes down the toilet, would you mind telling me which ones are the right ones? Because we believed that out of all the wipes to flush, the ones saying “Fine to flush” on the packet would be ok.

@Collaborate

This thread has got rather too large for me to read all the replies but I wanted to come on, as a solicitor (specialising in family law though) to say that all those so confident that you are liable may well be wrong and I'd be wondering what their legal qualifications were.

You would have a duty of care, potentially, to the restaurant, but that is not certain. All those saying you are liable simply because you caused the problem do not understand the basis of civil liability in this country. You would have to be found to have been negligent first of all, and the court would have to determine that you have a duty of care to the restaurant. The restaurant would have their work cut out proving this.

You say the landlords didn't tell you the pipes were unusually narrow. You had no way of knowing, and took reasonable care by ensuring the wipes used were "flushable." Don't make any more offers to the restaurant - in fact tell them that you need to take advice.

Thank you for this, I appreciate you taking the time to reply. That’s really informative and helpful and you’re right, we weren’t told anything at all about the status of the pipes until 2 days into this blockage situation when the owner of the building told me “Oh well the pipes around here are different to most places, they’re extra narrow and very old, they don’t work like other places and you have to be extra careful” I so wish we’d been told this!! Or it was in the tenancy or something, as we’d have never used the wipes.

@Ohbotherpiglet

Op I know someone who blocked the pipes with fat from cooking. Landlord paid to have drains sorted and didn’t charge tenant just told them not to do it again. When they did it again the landlord served them notice but still didn’t come after them for money.

That’s the normal response it’s what landlords insurance is for.

Tell the landlord there’s no way you could afford £5k and to go to their insurance.

Oh wow I’m surprised at this and honestly in this situation I’d fully expect to pay, as a tenant. Even if not the first time, at least the second! I think that’s a very generous landlord to do that after a warning and can see why they’d give them notice.

@TeachesOfPeaches

Has your landlord told you that you have to pay? They will have insurance as will the restaurant, do not offer to pay.

They have told us this yes. They’ve said that as soon as the various invoices come to them, they’ll be forwarding them onto us for payment, and they’ll also be sending us an invoice for all lost income that the restaurant incurred. I’ve asked them about if this could be sorted via their insurance but no reply, this was yesterday.

I think that the landlord should be claiming on their insurance. And the restaurant on theirs.

As a tenant you wouldn't have buildings insurance. Though honestly Op you should get household insurance.

Get some legal advice from CAB and good luck.

Not relevant to the insurance but perhaps your partner can just deposit his wipes in a nappy bag in the bathroom bin in future! When I have been in hotels abroad they often request this.

Its easy to play 'Spot the landlord' in this comment section!

OP, please don't worry.

Tenants do not need or require building insurance, that's the responsibility of the LL.

Honestly, don't worry. They cant take money you don't have, even if you were at fault/.

I fear you might have to pay for a massive lack of common sense.

You moved into an old listed building in a “very very old” part of the town and didn’t budget in for home insurance? You have said yourself in an earlier post you took that risk. It wasn’t worth it! I find it baffling your DH did so much research into getting the ‘right’ wipes for his arse yet you overlook the insurance issue. Did you not add up that the reason the insurance quote was higher for this property was because the stakes are higher if something goes wrong???

That said, I do think you should appeal to the landlord and restaurant for them to use their insurance policies to resolve this.

I'm a property manager working for a portfolio landlord and we routinely inform all tenants (whatever the age of their plumbing) not to flush anything other than toilet paper down the toilet, this includes 'fine to flush' wipes.

If you weren't given any advice about this then the landlord has not really take reasonable care to mitigate any potential issues, particularly in the case of an old building with antiquated pipework.

We would also take into account the length of your tenancy and whether it was possible that the previous occupants has contributed to the issue.

If the plumber was able to make a statement that the wipes were definitely the issue and that the amount was reasonable for the length of time you had been in the property then we may well ask you to pay the plumbing invoice - on the basis you had ignored the advice given not to flush anything other than toilet paper.

Anything over that e.g. claim for losses by the business below would be put in the hands of our insurance as that is what it is for.

On the basis you weren't given any advice about things to flush, the fact the wipes were marked 'fine to flush' and the fact that insuring the building and its plumbing is the landlord's responsibility, I really don't think you have to pay for any of this.

Morally, if it was me, I suspect I might offer to pay for the plumber's call out and resolve to stop flushing any wipes now I knew the pipes couldn't cope - but I'm not a lawyer and you may need proper legal advice about whether offering to pay for the plumber may then be deemed as admitting some liability and put you on the hook for other costs.

@Ohmybod

I fear you might have to pay for a massive lack of common sense.

You moved into an old listed building in a “very very old” part of the town and didn’t budget in for home insurance? You have said yourself in an earlier post you took that risk. It wasn’t worth it! I find it baffling your DH did so much research into getting the ‘right’ wipes for his arse yet you overlook the insurance issue. Did you not add up that the reason the insurance quote was higher for this property was because the stakes are higher if something goes wrong???

That said, I do think you should appeal to the landlord and restaurant for them to use their insurance policies to resolve this.

Renters get contents insurance. They can't get buildings insurance as it's not their building. It's the landlord's responsibility.

Given you used a product as advertised and directed, legally speaking I don't see how the fault of the fabric of the building to handle that can be your liability?

I do find it safer to assume the safe for flushing packaging is hyperbole and requires the best possible plumbing circumstances. I’ve often bought cat litter that is apparently ‘flushable’ and it seems completely insane to risk that.

All the messaging I hear from plumbers and the water company is along the lines of ‘for god’s sake, ignore those stupid claims and only flush toilet paper’ but it’s really a matter for trading standards to sort out. They shouldn’t be allowed to claim they are flushable. I mean if your moisturiser claims you’ll look younger in 30 days there’s no real harm if it doesn’t. But your wipes claiming to be flushable hinges on assumptions about plumbing the company has never inspected. I’m sure their lawyers have worked out all the ways it’s the consumer’s fault if it goes wrong, not the manufacturers.

Hope this doesn’t end up being too costly OP. And regardless of the plumbing, it’s much safer to bin these instead 😊