So stressed - landlords are wanting us to pay for issues I don’t believe are our fault

[PinkLadiApples]

Hi, I really hope someone may be able to help me, will try to keep this readable.

We live in a flat above a restaurant, the entire building is owned by a lady who lives locally and she uses an estate agents to manage it. We moved in 3 months ago.

Last week, the people in the restaurant complained that suddenly every time we flushed the toilet, used the taps, the washing machine or the shower, water and toilet waste was coming through to them. We stopped immediately and called an emergency plumber out, who identified that the toilet pipes had become blocked and the reason was my partner was using flushable toilet wipes and they’d built up and caused this.

We were without access to our toilet, shower, washing machine and all taps for 5 days because various plumbers didn’t bother turning up, plus a builder and drain unblocker were needed to fix this. It was a huge massive job which was incredibly stressful and we had to use the restaurant downstairs toilet and sinks which was very kind of them.

That first night it happened, they had to close, understandably, and they’ve lost a lot of money from bookings. They’re a small independent family run restaurant so I realise this was a huge deal to them.

The narrative throughout these past few days was that it’s basically all our fault for using these wipes, the owner was hinting at this several times and said we’d hear from the estate agents soon. I should add, the area we live in is very very old and we’re actually in a listed building, she told us that pipes here extremely old and narrow and not like most places. However no one told us that when we moved here.

So today we’ve had an email saying the responsibility of all this is fully ours, and we’ll be invoiced soon for not only the plumbing and builder bills but for all lost income of the restaurant. We’ve checked our tenancy agreement and it just states we have to take reasonable precautions not to cause pipe blockages. Nothing about these particular pipes being extra narrow or old.

When we’ve said the toilet wipes packaging says it’s “Certified fine to flush” they’ve said everyone knows not to trust that, but I didn’t know!

If anyone knows where we stand legally please let me know, I’d be so grateful.

@Lockedoorsopen

It is your fault though. Just like when we had a tenant who thought pouring fat directly down the drain would be fine. It wasn't and it was expensive to fix the damage.

The thing with the restaurant claiming on their insurance is that it will put they premiums up for next year.

Can you not ask them if you can split the bill so its easier to pay?

I don't understand why people buy these wipes - as they are not flushable. They are as bad as baby wipes.

Did the fat say "flushable" on the packet?? If not then its not the same thing

@PinkLadiApples my daughter flooded her downstairs neighbour. She had had her toilet repaired and the plumber either knocked or moved the soil pipe and for two weeks the contents of her loo were pouring into the downstairs flat. Plumber denied responsibility but the next plumber said definitely not him.

Any...point of my post. We hear nothing so think that the insurance of the freeholder must have covered it. Fingers crossed.

No the freeholder and the restaurant need to claim on their insurance. Stand your ground.

There are newer wipes which break down and are like tissues. They are weird. DH bought some for potty training and I thought we'd need to put them in the bin by the toilet but they really do break very easily.

hamiltonfraser.co.uk/knowledge/a-guide-to-landlords-and-tenants-property-repair-responsibilities/#:~:text=Although%20landlords%20are%20responsible%20for,their%20family%20or%20their%20guests

Sets it out - it does say though

For example, you may ask your tenants to pay for repair costs to things such as blocked drains, toilets, and pipes if the damage was caused by something the tenant did or did not do which was their responsibility.

So I think you may have to pay for that one - plus how many did he flush at a time - it clearly says only one on the packet. But I do think it is reasonably well known the damage they can cause and ultimately they did cause the damage you can see why the landlord is pushing for you to pay particularly given the above.

The restaurant is different though as they want damages from the event not to repair it (if that makes sense) and that is a different thing entirely and should be covered by insurance

Your household did cause the problems. Those wipes are notorious for blocking drains. But insurance should cover it. I dont think you can be liable for the restaurants loss of earnings. Maybe for the unblocking cost.

No matter what the landlord says, even if you were negligent they can't sue you - There is a very famous legal case that covers matters like this - its called Rowlands v Berni Inns - this case means that a landlord cannot sue a tenant for negligence if the damage is insured and the tenant contributes to the building insurance premium (which is standard in almost every lease).
I used to do buildings insurance claims and we never pursued a tenant for this very reason even when the claim was worth millions and they had insurance.
The restaurant will need to prove negligence and I'd very much doubt they will try and sue you, it's just not worth it and they'd be unlikely to succeed.
Don't be bullied into paying!

But that @unadulterateddad would rely on it being covered by insurance and given how the blockage occurred that is by no means a given.

@PinkLadiApples I have a feeling this is one where you actually need proper legal advice and some proper communication between all parties

@Quartz2208, I've got 20+ years of property insurance claims experience - if there is a buildings insurance policy, it would be covered.

This Shelter page says Landlord is responsible for repairs
They have a helpline too as your case may be more complex
england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/repairs/landlord_and_tenant_responsibilities_for_repairs

and if the lease says the Landlord "will insure for standard perils" then it doesn't actually matter if the policy is in place or whether that particular cover is endorsed out.

@BertieBotts

There are newer wipes which break down and are like tissues. They are weird. DH bought some for potty training and I thought we'd need to put them in the bin by the toilet but they really do break very easily.

Yes, there are, which is what the OP has used. The 'fine to flush' standard was made by the water industry who I'd imagine have a vested interest in trying to sort out people throwing plastic down the loo.

Tbh whether it was your fault or not - I think the restaurant business liability is ridiculous. And I say that as a business owner myself.

Its their responsibility to have adequate insurance cover for business interruption. If they don't thats on their heads. Not yours.

@moose62

Not relevant to the insurance but perhaps your partner can just deposit his wipes in a nappy bag in the bathroom bin in future! When I have been in hotels abroad they often request this.

I think he’s going to either do this, or get one of the sprays recommended by others on here. That is a really good idea though, in fact I’m sure I suggested something similar when we first moved here but he hated the idea of having to keep these used wipes anywhere in the flat! He doesn’t have OCD as a diagnosis, and isn’t like this in any other area of his life, but with toilet hygiene I would say he has obsessive tendencies.

@Ohmybod

I fear you might have to pay for a massive lack of common sense.

You moved into an old listed building in a “very very old” part of the town and didn’t budget in for home insurance? You have said yourself in an earlier post you took that risk. It wasn’t worth it! I find it baffling your DH did so much research into getting the ‘right’ wipes for his arse yet you overlook the insurance issue. Did you not add up that the reason the insurance quote was higher for this property was because the stakes are higher if something goes wrong???

That said, I do think you should appeal to the landlord and restaurant for them to use their insurance policies to resolve this.

You’re right, when you put it like that we really do seem like a couple of dingbats 🤦🏼‍♀️

We just can’t pay what we can’t pay though, and the insurance quotes were simply too high to be able to afford. We wouldn’t have chosen to move here but as I explained in a PP we had to move very suddenly and so many places wouldn’t even consider us due to being on UC.

However from what I’ve read, even if we did have insurance I don’t think it would have helped us in this situation?

@bigdecisionstomake

I'm a property manager working for a portfolio landlord and we routinely inform all tenants (whatever the age of their plumbing) not to flush anything other than toilet paper down the toilet, this includes 'fine to flush' wipes.

If you weren't given any advice about this then the landlord has not really take reasonable care to mitigate any potential issues, particularly in the case of an old building with antiquated pipework.

We would also take into account the length of your tenancy and whether it was possible that the previous occupants has contributed to the issue.

If the plumber was able to make a statement that the wipes were definitely the issue and that the amount was reasonable for the length of time you had been in the property then we may well ask you to pay the plumbing invoice - on the basis you had ignored the advice given not to flush anything other than toilet paper.

Anything over that e.g. claim for losses by the business below would be put in the hands of our insurance as that is what it is for.

On the basis you weren't given any advice about things to flush, the fact the wipes were marked 'fine to flush' and the fact that insuring the building and its plumbing is the landlord's responsibility, I really don't think you have to pay for any of this.

Morally, if it was me, I suspect I might offer to pay for the plumber's call out and resolve to stop flushing any wipes now I knew the pipes couldn't cope - but I'm not a lawyer and you may need proper legal advice about whether offering to pay for the plumber may then be deemed as admitting some liability and put you on the hook for other costs.

Thanks so much for your reply, I appreciate it and the detail. The plumber has confirmed it was the wipes that caused this, and we’ve now been invoiced. A preliminary quote is £1900, but there is still more invoices from other tradespeople to come.

The moral thing is awful, I’m starting to feel so bad about all this and very guilty. I feel guilty about a lot of things though! My DP is not like me in this way and is saying we need to stand firm because we’re not at fault. Not to mention we have zero savings and little disposable income from UC so wouldn’t be able to pay anyway. Just to say, we absolutely stopped flushing the wipes immediately and will never buy them again.

@tcjotm

I do find it safer to assume the safe for flushing packaging is hyperbole and requires the best possible plumbing circumstances. I’ve often bought cat litter that is apparently ‘flushable’ and it seems completely insane to risk that.

All the messaging I hear from plumbers and the water company is along the lines of ‘for god’s sake, ignore those stupid claims and only flush toilet paper’ but it’s really a matter for trading standards to sort out. They shouldn’t be allowed to claim they are flushable. I mean if your moisturiser claims you’ll look younger in 30 days there’s no real harm if it doesn’t. But your wipes claiming to be flushable hinges on assumptions about plumbing the company has never inspected. I’m sure their lawyers have worked out all the ways it’s the consumer’s fault if it goes wrong, not the manufacturers.

Hope this doesn’t end up being too costly OP. And regardless of the plumbing, it’s much safer to bin these instead 😊

You’re right, and in hindsight we shouldn’t have trusted the packaging, it’s just that the symbol does seem to mean something in the water industry. Yep absolutely lesson learnt and will never flush anything other than the very cheapest toilet roll again! I think you’re right about Sainsburys too, they’ll have had ways to make it the consumer’s fault if anything goes wrong. In fact they basically already have blamed it on the pipes, so we’re not going to get any compensation or anything from them.

@unadulterateddad

No matter what the landlord says, even if you were negligent they can't sue you - There is a very famous legal case that covers matters like this - its called Rowlands v Berni Inns - this case means that a landlord cannot sue a tenant for negligence if the damage is insured and the tenant contributes to the building insurance premium (which is standard in almost every lease). I used to do buildings insurance claims and we never pursued a tenant for this very reason even when the claim was worth millions and they had insurance. The restaurant will need to prove negligence and I'd very much doubt they will try and sue you, it's just not worth it and they'd be unlikely to succeed. Don't be bullied into paying!

That’s fascinating, thank you! I’ll look up this case as it’s interesting. Will have to see what happens, unfortunately it’s going to ruin any relationship between us and the restaurant and the estate agents and the landlady, and this makes me stupidly sad. I hate conflict so much.

[quote DuckbilledSplatterPuff]This Shelter page says Landlord is responsible for repairs
They have a helpline too as your case may be more complex
england.shelter.org.uk/housing_advice/repairs/landlord_and_tenant_responsibilities_for_repairs[/quote]
Thank you, I tried but couldn’t get through to Shelter, or to CAB. Tried for a long time yesterday, so am going to the drop in session at the local CAB Monday.

@Quartz2208

hamiltonfraser.co.uk/knowledge/a-guide-to-landlords-and-tenants-property-repair-responsibilities/#:~:text=Although%20landlords%20are%20responsible%20for,their%20family%20or%20their%20guests

Sets it out - it does say though

For example, you may ask your tenants to pay for repair costs to things such as blocked drains, toilets, and pipes if the damage was caused by something the tenant did or did not do which was their responsibility.

So I think you may have to pay for that one - plus how many did he flush at a time - it clearly says only one on the packet. But I do think it is reasonably well known the damage they can cause and ultimately they did cause the damage you can see why the landlord is pushing for you to pay particularly given the above.

The restaurant is different though as they want damages from the event not to repair it (if that makes sense) and that is a different thing entirely and should be covered by insurance

He did flush them one at a time, he made sure to follow the pack instructions. As I said, we’re very respectful tenants who try hard to not do anything that would cause any issues because we don’t want to be evicted!! It’s such a stress moving, and for me with my health issues it’s even harder.

This is why it’s difficult because they’re maintaining that it’s common sense not to flush any wipes at all down the toilet, and yet we didn’t know that these particular ones were included in that, due to the fine to flush symbol. It’s such a grey area! Then there’s the whole issue of these being extra old and narrow pipes too, which we were definitely not warned about.

@LemonSwan

Tbh whether it was your fault or not - I think the restaurant business liability is ridiculous. And I say that as a business owner myself.

Its their responsibility to have adequate insurance cover for business interruption. If they don't thats on their heads. Not yours.

This is what I wondered too, but I think it must come down to them not wanting to claim due to premiums going up. Which I can understand - they have done absolutely nothing wrong here! I feel like we’ve caused them a whole load of hassle and they didn’t deserve this, it’s so awkward now to see them and it’s obvious they’re not happy with us. Makes me sad as we had got on well these past 3 months and had a neighbourly relationship.

I would tell them that they will need to take legal action to get the money from you. I would never flush wipes, flushable or not because our pipes are not great either but that said, the wipes are branded as flushable and the pipes are old and narrow. You should have been informed legally. Anyway it isn't your building and therefore I can't see how the restaurant can make a claim against you. Maybe they can make a claim against the landlord. In any case I would simply refuse to pay and wait and see what happens.

My advice would be to take proper legal advice - send out a letter or two following the insurance bit unadulterateddad set out and leave it at that.

Or communicate and apologise and see if you can come with a solution (including discussing insurance)

Ok thank you both, I appreciate this. Will update soon.

So much bad advice as a result of posters just wanting to put the boot in.

The landlord and the restaurant need to claim on their insurance.