So stressed - landlords are wanting us to pay for issues I don’t believe are our fault

[PinkLadiApples]

Hi, I really hope someone may be able to help me, will try to keep this readable.

We live in a flat above a restaurant, the entire building is owned by a lady who lives locally and she uses an estate agents to manage it. We moved in 3 months ago.

Last week, the people in the restaurant complained that suddenly every time we flushed the toilet, used the taps, the washing machine or the shower, water and toilet waste was coming through to them. We stopped immediately and called an emergency plumber out, who identified that the toilet pipes had become blocked and the reason was my partner was using flushable toilet wipes and they’d built up and caused this.

We were without access to our toilet, shower, washing machine and all taps for 5 days because various plumbers didn’t bother turning up, plus a builder and drain unblocker were needed to fix this. It was a huge massive job which was incredibly stressful and we had to use the restaurant downstairs toilet and sinks which was very kind of them.

That first night it happened, they had to close, understandably, and they’ve lost a lot of money from bookings. They’re a small independent family run restaurant so I realise this was a huge deal to them.

The narrative throughout these past few days was that it’s basically all our fault for using these wipes, the owner was hinting at this several times and said we’d hear from the estate agents soon. I should add, the area we live in is very very old and we’re actually in a listed building, she told us that pipes here extremely old and narrow and not like most places. However no one told us that when we moved here.

So today we’ve had an email saying the responsibility of all this is fully ours, and we’ll be invoiced soon for not only the plumbing and builder bills but for all lost income of the restaurant. We’ve checked our tenancy agreement and it just states we have to take reasonable precautions not to cause pipe blockages. Nothing about these particular pipes being extra narrow or old.

When we’ve said the toilet wipes packaging says it’s “Certified fine to flush” they’ve said everyone knows not to trust that, but I didn’t know!

If anyone knows where we stand legally please let me know, I’d be so grateful.

Your partner could try a lota jug or bidet spray for staying hygienic.
Even quite old plumbing can usually tolerate a bidet spray being installed but you should probably ask a plumber.

If the wipes have the Water UK Fine to Flush logo on them, they are fine to flush. Check the packaging. These are certified by water companies to break down in the sewage system.

If they do, not your fault. If the wipes don't have the logo, I'd speak to a solicitor.

If you can't even afford insurance there's no way you can afford to pay their bills. Refuse to pay and let them take you to court.

@Junobug

I can imagine that you're feeling a bit sick at the cost of the bill, but are you expecting the landlady and restaurant to cover it when you flushed the wipes? I'm not sure that the size of the pipes really matters here. I guess you could argue that the restaurant should have insurance to cover things like this but morally, it is your fault.

Yes I see what you’re saying. I don’t want to fall out with them, and for sure the restaurant shouldn’t have to pay a penny. I don’t know what to say, except I had hoped being guided by the packaging would help.

I am very strict about this, I would never ever flush tissue or kitchen roll down there for example because I know it won’t break up. Baby wipes or face wipes too, no way. I guess me and partner are a couple of idiots basically 🙁

The sainsburys ones do seem to have that logo.

I have very little sympathy for people who put wipes down loos - everyone knows they cause blockages both to the plumbing system of the building but also to the main sewage systems. Tell your partner to stop using them and I hope you have decent insurance.

www.scottishwater.co.uk/en/Your-Home/Campaigns/Keep-the-Cycle-Running/Bathroom-Checklist#:~:text=Flushing%20things%20like%20wipes%2C%20nappies,flooding%20you%20and%20your%20neighbours.&text=all%20wipes%20(baby%2C%20personal%20cleansing,if%20the%20pack%20says%20'flushable'

This is the advice we have in Scotland- don't use wipes even if the pack says they are flushable.

Get some legal advice. I disagree with the PPs. You used wipes in good faith that were marked as flushable. Had you been using non flushable wipes that's a different matter. Shelter say you may have to pay for blockages if you didn't "take reasonable care" to prevent them. I would argue that flushing flushable wipes couldn't be regarded as not taking reasonable care.

I would try to contact shelter for advice in the first instance as the housing advice aspects. You may also need legal advice. Do you have any legal advice policies with your insurances or your work?

@Clymene

If the wipes have the Water UK Fine to Flush logo on them, they are fine to flush. Check the packaging. These are certified by water companies to break down in the sewage system.

If they do, not your fault. If the wipes don't have the logo, I'd speak to a solicitor.

Thanks for replying, they do indeed have the logo, these are the wipes.

www.sainsburys.co.uk/gol-ui/product/sainsburys-super-soft-sensitive-wipes-x42?productId=91740&utm_campaign=15436925491&utm_medium=cpc&storeId=10151&gclid=CjwKCAiAl-6PBhBCEiwAc2GOVIBdeA55zu-NeSR3yoQypvnS9mJ6yVM345Z-B_tXO-pQwuYwUWg0VxoCiukQAvD_BwE&catalogId=10241&langId=44&utm_source=Google&krypto=EP6WFEv%2BZr9Nk%2ByjIuiJm%2ByULF4U3%2B%2FVGxffKrz4KNXqdk5sG3QpXk5OUgUEkYUQ2cV9bfUGqI15g0a74IbMLH%2F%2FV5MEbP%2Bn6M1KFIdzImf4X0E7pH6O%2Bv6vxTDmEmXK91AoNEPSFZzQ5kSbP7YxOVxlXTDTMZwvYlanj00q4zM%2Bc7CM1IYbd02k4pygCGx0wXqRzY3deu%2BknlONpBAzmSHNUqZTijKFn2CGlFqb%2BoT52f5K9AGK6XpIGdpVC2Jx0DiZeIfGoLA0Odq8t%2BMfCuVosrXGC21g7tbQYGG5y1x%2B783ha9QSLrhqlaBkGfY4%2FMiAHLWqQjgiAcIhfmhWcEEE34DBSC0iduLBhcxWXmyR66EtuD53eaX%2FmkIh4Y2%2FeV4veC6y80olF%2FsTIhmqf%2F5KXtNfBv06cCYs3LtTNAj0vKvkA%2B9vZI7qvoIz0DN8LNpIyaacu6hWGU28%2BFC0jm0AtY7263Ax6Ak7HRymVfo%3D&ddkey=https%3Agb%2Fgroceries%2Fsainsburys-super-soft-sensitive-wipes-x42

Have you got legal advice on your home insurance? I'm not sure of the legal standing but I can see how they could argue negligence given you caused the blockage. It is well known that no wipes are flushable no difference from causing a blockage due to putting tampons down there or cotton wool

@MsFogi

I have very little sympathy for people who put wipes down loos - everyone knows they cause blockages both to the plumbing system of the building but also to the main sewage systems. Tell your partner to stop using them and I hope you have decent insurance.

But we didn’t know this, genuinely!! I am appalled and disgusted at people who flush things down the toilet that don’t say they’re fine to flush, why would anyone do that? It’s so irresponsible. We have NOT done that. As I said though, I concede we are idiots and should have known somehow. I do feel really stupid right now.

I would also dispute the fact that it's common knowledge not to flush even flushable wipes. Why would you know if you don't know. And also have a packet right in front of you that says the item is flushable! Why would you think to query it if you didn't even know it might be a problem.

You do need legal advice as if found liable you will be asked to compensate the restaurant for their loss of earnings for the period where they were forced to close.

It is unlikely you will be able to pay this off at £20 a month!

@SuperLoudPoppingAction

www.scottishwater.co.uk/en/Your-Home/Campaigns/Keep-the-Cycle-Running/Bathroom-Checklist#:~:text=Flushing%20things%20like%20wipes%2C%20nappies,flooding%20you%20and%20your%20neighbours.&text=all%20wipes%20(baby%2C%20personal%20cleansing,if%20the%20pack%20says%20'flushable'

This is the advice we have in Scotland- don't use wipes even if the pack says they are flushable.

Oh interesting! We’re not in Scotland but I’ll check this for England too.

I think it would be up to you to demonstrate that the wipes company were at fault.

@TooManyPJs

Get some legal advice. I disagree with the PPs. You used wipes in good faith that were marked as flushable. Had you been using non flushable wipes that's a different matter. Shelter say you may have to pay for blockages if you didn't "take reasonable care" to prevent them. I would argue that flushing flushable wipes couldn't be regarded as not taking reasonable care.

I would try to contact shelter for advice in the first instance as the housing advice aspects. You may also need legal advice. Do you have any legal advice policies with your insurances or your work?

Thank you so much, I appreciate your advice and kind words. Yes exactly he used the wipes in good faith and trusted the symbol, he also read an article about the fine to flush symbol and what it actually means. We genuinely bought them believing they’d be completely fine.

I’ll contact Shelter tomorrow for some help, I’m signed off sick for work partner is my carer.

This needs to go via your landlords insurance not you. They are trying it on. Who's to say the previous tenants didn't do the same. Plus they have the flushable logo on

I agree you took reasonable precautions not to cause blockages by buying wipes to at say they are fine to flush. The landlady and restaurant need to claim on their insurance and they should take it up with the wipes company for false advertising! But unfortunately they will try to browbeat you instead so I think seeking legal advice is your best recourse.

@Dearmariacountmein

Have you got legal advice on your home insurance? I'm not sure of the legal standing but I can see how they could argue negligence given you caused the blockage. It is well known that no wipes are flushable no difference from causing a blockage due to putting tampons down there or cotton wool

We unfortunately don’t have home insurance, when we moved here our policy jumped up to a crazy amount compared to our old place due to the area and status of the building. So we just left it and took the risk as we couldn’t afford it.

You see, to me it’s well known that you don’t flush tampons or cotton wool down, but it’s not well known you can’t flush certified toilet wipes that say “Safe to flush”! So what should I have done if this knowledge wasn’t spelled out in the tenancy agreement?

We use flushable toilet wipes as my daughter can sometimes have trouble getting herself clean. I've never thought they could clog pipes as they say they are safe to flush so I don't think you are stupid OP to have used them.

Sainsbury's sell a spray that you spray onto toilet paper instead of using wet wipes (flushable or not!) - that might be something to investigate using in future. It's with the toilet roll & wet wipes, I think.

@SeasonFinale

You do need legal advice as if found liable you will be asked to compensate the restaurant for their loss of earnings for the period where they were forced to close.

It is unlikely you will be able to pay this off at £20 a month!

Well exactly yes, I think it’s going to be around £5000 when we get all the invoices. I seriously could cry. We’re on universal credit and don’t have savings. At the same time, the restaurant family are such lovely people- I actually bought them a bunch of flowers, some chocolates and a load of toilet rolls and kitchen rolls to more than replace the ones we’d used when using their facilities. Not that this covers their losses but I’m just saying they are such nice people who didn’t deserve this, if I could I’d pay their lost income immediately.

I think sadly the plumbing bill is probably yours to pay but the restaurant are having a laugh. They should have insurance or your landlord and her insurance can cover it. Cab is a good call and I think Sainsbury could be seen as liable but honestly if you blocked the pipes in 3 days that's a hell of a lot of wipes. We have a tenant who has repeatedly broken the toilet and the sink by using them in a way not usual in the UK. We've paid for all repairs and so far have found no way to get him to pay although legally he should.

What a stressful situation for you!

You can't afford the bills, and I don't think it's necessarily your problem.

I would find a way to get free legal information. Citizen's Advice maybe? I would get them to help you write a letter to the restaurant owner stating that you don't accept responsibility for the costs since you were using an item which claims to be safe to flush. And if they wish to pursue a complaint against the manufacturer, you will help in any way you can.

Yes, this is likely to cause tension between you all and I don't think it will be pleasant to continue living near them as you'll be feeling like you're walking on egg shells. You'll feel self-conscious using the plumbing in your own flat and worried about any further accidents.

I'd look into sending them a formal letter, ensuring you point out you do not accept financial responsibility, and then explore moving options unless you can front out the awkwardness.

Seek professional advice as to liability, but I suspect you are on the hook with this.

Depending on the sum involved if uninsured and you have no money or assets of value it may be that the chance of recovering any reasonable sum is so low that they don’t pursue it.

I would expect in that instance that you would need to find somewhere else to live.

You may find that should you be liable and unable to pay that given a detailed statement of affairs and an offer to produce what you can (selling assets as possible, not relying on cash flow), they may accept part payment. To be able to petition you for bankruptcy you would have to owe them >£5000 so hopefully this isn’t into that territory.