So stressed - landlords are wanting us to pay for issues I don’t believe are our fault

[PinkLadiApples]

Hi, I really hope someone may be able to help me, will try to keep this readable.

We live in a flat above a restaurant, the entire building is owned by a lady who lives locally and she uses an estate agents to manage it. We moved in 3 months ago.

Last week, the people in the restaurant complained that suddenly every time we flushed the toilet, used the taps, the washing machine or the shower, water and toilet waste was coming through to them. We stopped immediately and called an emergency plumber out, who identified that the toilet pipes had become blocked and the reason was my partner was using flushable toilet wipes and they’d built up and caused this.

We were without access to our toilet, shower, washing machine and all taps for 5 days because various plumbers didn’t bother turning up, plus a builder and drain unblocker were needed to fix this. It was a huge massive job which was incredibly stressful and we had to use the restaurant downstairs toilet and sinks which was very kind of them.

That first night it happened, they had to close, understandably, and they’ve lost a lot of money from bookings. They’re a small independent family run restaurant so I realise this was a huge deal to them.

The narrative throughout these past few days was that it’s basically all our fault for using these wipes, the owner was hinting at this several times and said we’d hear from the estate agents soon. I should add, the area we live in is very very old and we’re actually in a listed building, she told us that pipes here extremely old and narrow and not like most places. However no one told us that when we moved here.

So today we’ve had an email saying the responsibility of all this is fully ours, and we’ll be invoiced soon for not only the plumbing and builder bills but for all lost income of the restaurant. We’ve checked our tenancy agreement and it just states we have to take reasonable precautions not to cause pipe blockages. Nothing about these particular pipes being extra narrow or old.

When we’ve said the toilet wipes packaging says it’s “Certified fine to flush” they’ve said everyone knows not to trust that, but I didn’t know!

If anyone knows where we stand legally please let me know, I’d be so grateful.

No help on the legal issues, but an option for your partner instead of the wipes … we use reusable washable cloths - just cut up and old towel and overlock/hem the edges, wet before use and store in a lidded bin. Wash as needed. We were converted after cloth napping our baby from birth! Will never go back to toilet tissue - feel like I can’t get clean now if I am at a loo out of the home.

You can also buy them “cheeky wipes” sell them. Other option is cut up a fleece or microfibre tea towel to wash - but I find the looped cotton fabric (like a bath towel) is much better at cleaning

@Lauren1983

We use flushable toilet wipes as my daughter can sometimes have trouble getting herself clean. I've never thought they could clog pipes as they say they are safe to flush so I don't think you are stupid OP to have used them.

Oh really, that’s so kind of you to say 🥰 And I wouldn’t think you were stupid either for using them for your daughter if I’d read this, we are just harsher on ourselves sometimes aren’t we?

If you look at the hard facts, it says very clearly they are certified fine to flush. Where do we stop if we tell people they’re not to trust anything on the packaging of things? It’s a difficult situation isn’t it.

Thank you very much for the suggestions for alternatives to the wipes, will pass these onto partner. Much appreciated.

This needs to go through your landlords insurance. A good landlord will have good insurance which should cover buildings and contents.

The wipes were labelled as flushable, therefore you could say you took reasonable precautions. Please don't let them bully you into paying for everything. Contact Shelter for legal advice.

To the PPs talking about OP’s (lack of) insurance - it’s surely not usual for a tenant to have buildings insurance; a tenant would only have contents insurance, it’s up to the landlord to cover buildings which is surely what this claim would fall under.

I don’t really know why this thread is so gloomy and judgmental; the wipes said flushable so OP and her husband haven’t done anything wrong in flushing them, even if “everyone knows” you should ignore that.

I think the landlord is being a bit of a dick personally. They should be insured and it’s their responsibility.

@Whingasaurus

I think sadly the plumbing bill is probably yours to pay but the restaurant are having a laugh. They should have insurance or your landlord and her insurance can cover it. Cab is a good call and I think Sainsbury could be seen as liable but honestly if you blocked the pipes in 3 days that's a hell of a lot of wipes. We have a tenant who has repeatedly broken the toilet and the sink by using them in a way not usual in the UK. We've paid for all repairs and so far have found no way to get him to pay although legally he should.

Oh no maybe I worded it badly, it’s been just over 3 months we’ve been here and he started using the wipes then. Not happened over 3 days. He’s worked out he’s used approx 150 individual wipes over that time.

That sounds like a nightmare what your tenant is doing and I really feel for you with that. Has he at least stopped using it in this way now?

I'm surprised you have caused a blockage in 3 months with flushable wipes, how can they prove the people before you weren't flushing wet wipes? There's no evidence you caused it I wouldn't pay

@LuckyKitty13

No help on the legal issues, but an option for your partner instead of the wipes … we use reusable washable cloths - just cut up and old towel and overlock/hem the edges, wet before use and store in a lidded bin. Wash as needed. We were converted after cloth napping our baby from birth! Will never go back to toilet tissue - feel like I can’t get clean now if I am at a loo out of the home.

You can also buy them “cheeky wipes” sell them. Other option is cut up a fleece or microfibre tea towel to wash - but I find the looped cotton fabric (like a bath towel) is much better at cleaning

This is brilliant! Yep that’s exactly it, he doesn’t feel clean if he just uses paper. Will mention this suggestion.

I would image that as you used a fully certified-as-flushable product then the pipes could be deemed as at fault, not you or the wipes- unless it was specifically stated in your contract not to use anything other than thin loo roll. In order to blame you then they'd have to prove the wipes are indeed not flushable and its unlikely they'd take on Sainburys over that. That would put the ball back in the court of the landlord. But best to get legal advice.

The landlord needs to claim on his insurance op. He's pulling a fast one.

It’s not your fault OP, and you’re not stupid. We use the wipes now that they’re certified “fine to flush” we flush them and it’s fine, never had a blockage. My partner is actually a plumber so wouldn’t be doing it if he thought it’d cause an issue. The difference is I live in a very new home with decent plumbing. How on earth were you supposed to know the plumbing was knackered!
Definitely do not offer to pay anything as that would be accepting liability. Start looking for somewhere else to move to after the 6 months and tell them to take you to court if they want you to pay, because this wasn’t your fault!

This doesn’t help your immediate problem, but he can buy a handheld squeeze bidet bottle that he fills up in the sink for around £15-20.

You can also get bidet seats, but those cost more and have to be worked into the plumbing which I imagine after this incident you won’t want to touch even though it’s quite simple.

@GivenchyDahhling

To the PPs talking about OP’s (lack of) insurance - it’s surely not usual for a tenant to have buildings insurance; a tenant would only have contents insurance, it’s up to the landlord to cover buildings which is surely what this claim would fall under.

I don’t really know why this thread is so gloomy and judgmental; the wipes said flushable so OP and her husband haven’t done anything wrong in flushing them, even if “everyone knows” you should ignore that.

I think the landlord is being a bit of a dick personally. They should be insured and it’s their responsibility.

I totally agree .

Contents insurance would not have covered this and as the wipes were purchased from a reputable company who have confirmed they should be flat able the problem is probably the plumbing

First move ask Sainsbury’s to confirm in writing
Second move stick to the statement that you took reasonable care as you made sure the wipes were flushable .
Don’t offer to pay for anything at this stage or be bullied .
Perhaps ask the plumber to confirm in writing that the pipes are old and unusually narrow .

Then go to CAB for advice .

I don’t think you should admit fault or agree to pay anything. I think you acted in good faith with a product marketed as flushable. I agree if the landlord knew the plumbing was vulnerable it should have been specifically mentioned in the contract what you can and can’t flush.

I hope you can get some legal advice. Be kind to yourself.

You are not at fault here. Do not offer to pay. Was a drain camera out down the pipes to check the condition of the pipework? It could have been a buid up from the previous tenant.

If the wipes said flushable then you used them as they were intended. The fact the landlord hasn't upgraded the plumbing is not your responsibility.

It is between your building insurance and the restaurants to fight it out. As you are a tenant your insurance will be the one your landlord holds, not you personally.

We were landlords for a bit, as we moved abroad with DHs job.
About 3 months in, we got a call from the letting agent (with a decent reputation) to say drains blocked, our (landlords) responsibility to sort.
2 months later, we got a similar call, where I said in 10 years of living in the house we'd never had an issue, we're the tenants to blame? We still had to pay the bill, but the tenants flushing habits were apparently discussed with them, and it didn't happen again.
I wouldn't have been happy with you calling your own plumber, but I think the bill is on your landlord. And I think insurance needs to deal with the restaurant - either the landlords or theirs.

However, you really should try to get some contents cover. I know you say you can't afford it, but imagine if it was all your stuff covered in sewage. How would you ever be able to replace ir?

When I lived in a ground floor flat, the flat above had a leak and caused damage to our kitchen. We had to claim off our own house insurance as it was our property was damaged iygwis . I suspect the restaurant needs to claim off their insurance.

The landlord insurance should cover a building, but the restaurant should have separate insurance for loss of business I would have thought. We had a shop, flat upstairs mother and two daughters their tampons backed up and buggered up all the plumbing. We split the insurance 50/50 for the shop with landlord the plumbing mess was his to sort

Can I just help you out on the wipes? You can buy sprays that you spray on your bog roll that turns normal loo roll into a wipe. Your partner can now freshen his arse fear free.

Suspect that the restaurant will need to claim losses against their own insurance.

It’s not common sense that wipes with a flushable logo would cause damage like this. If you’ve never been told then I don’t see how it’s your fault.

And it’s also not common sense to think the pipes are different than in others places you’ve lived. The landlord should have informed you.

Speak to all the people mentioned above.
My feeling is, I’d be very surprised that you caused such a substantial blockage in 3 months, even with the wipes. I’m guessing there may have been an issue before and then your wipes have piled in on it. For instance fat down the drains (restaurants for instance can have issues with this), or previous tenants using wipes or anything else going down there.

The insurance thing is odd. I’ve rented for well over a decade now and only ever been advised to have contents. Not building. I’ve even had some insurance refuse to cover buildings because it’s not ours to insure.

@Lockedoorsopen

Your plumber is wrong - those wipes do not degrade like toilet paper does. Its nothing to do with toilet cleaner either.

I think the plumber was advocating NOT using the wipes for exactly that reason, and I don’t think his advice on not using toilet cleaner was connected with using the wipes - rather that toilet cleaner erodes the pipe work.

@Northernsoullover

Can I just help you out on the wipes? You can buy sprays that you spray on your bog roll that turns normal loo roll into a wipe. Your partner can now freshen his arse fear free.

🤣🤣🤣

Yeah I think people are getting confused with contents and building insurance

I doubt the problem has occurred just in the last 3 months. The landlord can’t prove the pipes were totally free before.

Don’t admit anything OP, it should be the landlord to claim on buildings insurance