Grandparents rights and contact (currently NC)

[NoContactThankYou]

Name changed for privacy.

I'm wondering if anyone could offer any advice please.

I went NC with my mother in December 2017 following years of emotional abuse that all came to a head between November and December 2017.

Since then she has had no contact with my children (born 2011 and 2013). This is despite repeated efforts on her part including texts, emails and cards. On one occasion she had her partner knock our door with flowers and gifts whilst she waited in the car and more recently (July 2021) knocked on our door herself. Both times they were sent away and DC had no idea what had happened.

My brother rang me today to tell me that she was now going down the legal route. First with mediation and if we refuse that, she will take us to court. He passed on that should I allow her contact with my children, she will cease legal action.

I am well aware that she is trying to scare me into complying with her. I am standing my ground and won't be blackmailed. There will be no mediation and we are content to fight this all the way.

She's basing her right to access on Grandparents Rights and I'm fairly sure she doesn't have a case. She is effectively a stranger to my children, having not seen or spoken to them for four years, though they know of her through photographs and general stories. DC1 remembers her more so than DC2. She lives over 100 miles away and prior to NC saw them 2-3 times a year, perhaps up to 4 times if she popped in for lunch as she was passing to visit other family. We have never lived locally to her and she has never had them alone for more than a couple of hours at a time and those instances probably number less than five.

I have written evidence of her emotional abuse spanning from that period in November/December 2017 up to July 2020 via her emails and text messages. I could also provide oral evidence of emotional abuse and neglect from my own childhood, including allowing me to be physically abused by someone else and how I requested to be put into foster care as a result (and was).

I have no concerns about physical safeguarding if my children were to have contact, but both DH and I have huge concerns about emotional abuse based on previous patterns.

But still, I worry. What if they grant her contact? I don't know about the legal side of things so I am hoping that someone wise may be here to help.

Thank you.

Grandparents rights vary according to what country you're in. You've not mentioned that?

Where is this? No part of UK has such a thing as grandparents rights.

If you are in UK, she has no chance of gaining access through courts. None at all.

Ignore.

I am not any kind of expert but my understanding is that it is vanishingly unlikely that any kind of contact would be ordered unless there was a significant amount of contact/childcare already in existence. Which is absolutely not the case for your children. As you say, she is a stranger to them.

It's disappointing that your brother is allowing himself to be used as your mother's flying monkey, but perhaps that's a role he has played before?

Apologies, forgot to say that we are in the UK.

Grandparents don't have legal rights here, but they can apply for access through the courts. First she'll have to apply for mediation. If we refuse (we will) she'll have to apply for contact. If we contest (we will), then it goes to court.

I know the onus is on her to provide evidence of how not being in my children's lives is detrimental to them and I think she'll struggle.

But stranger things have happened and it is a concern.

And yes, my brother was her flying monkey today. He used to have that role until I squashed it out of him but it would appear that he has reprised it today. DH was pretty pissed at him about it.

They can apply to the Court for permission to make an application for a CAO. From what you say, they are unlikely to be given permission. S10 (9) Children Act 1989 deals

If they have had no contact for 4 years, they shouldn't get anywhere.

Sorry that is assuming you are in England or Wales. No idea about Scotland or NI although probably similar.

She hasn't got a leg to stand on.

England.

Thank you, it's reassuring to hear that it's unlikely to get anywhere. DH and a friend said the same, but neither are versed in legal matters.

So would she be stopped at the second hurdle. Meaning I wouldn't need to go to court?

I also really don't want my children involved or interviewed as part of the process. It isn't fair on them.

I think you have used your children as a weapon and not seeing grandparents is not good for their emotional development. However the grandparents have no rights. Sorting something out at mediation would be better and your children should be consulted about what they want. You have made this decision but they have lost grandparents. It’s similar to bereavement for them. So sorting out your differences might be better for DC.

How has she used her children as a weapon?

@TizerorFizz

I think you have used your children as a weapon and not seeing grandparents is not good for their emotional development. However the grandparents have no rights. Sorting something out at mediation would be better and your children should be consulted about what they want. You have made this decision but they have lost grandparents. It’s similar to bereavement for them. So sorting out your differences might be better for DC.

Err, I read it as protecting them.

By using the DC in an argument with the grandparents. Ensuring they don’t see grandparents uses the children. Mediation might find a way through. Neglect and issues in the op’s childhood and issues between her and her parents have driven the op to stop her DC seeing their grandparents. Therefore they are weaponised. Sad but true. They have never had any issues with the grandparents from what has been written. They are being denied access to their grandparents and not receiving cards, presents or even minimal contact.

@Purplepeoniesdroppingpetals
You cannot infer that from what’s been written. What actions have the grandparents taken that is directed at the children? It seems to be about the op and her feelings. Which I do accept are valid. However the grandparents haven’t done anything wrong with their grandchildren. As far as we know.

@tizerorfizz it doesn't harm children not to have grandparents.

Why on Earth would a relationship be facilitated between the op’s children and her abusive mother?

A huge part of being a parent is protecting your children. Should she assume that the same abuse wouldn’t be inflicted on her children? How odd.

@ TizerorFizz if the grandparents were abusive enough to their own child that she went NC then, as an extension of her, her children will be NC as well.

They can of course seek contact when they’re adults and able to make their own decisions, but as children they see the people their mother sees, and as she doesn’t see them Then neither do they.

It does if they have them and don’t see them. Especially as they used to see them! The DC could see grandparents with another adult present for example. They could receive gifts and cards. They could call each other. Nonetheless this is very sad for all concerned.

I would reassess your relationship with your db now he’s done this. He shouldn’t have got involved.

@TizerorFizz I’m confused, why would anyone push for a relationship with someone who has been abusive?

@TizerorFizz

By using the DC in an argument with the grandparents. Ensuring they don’t see grandparents uses the children. Mediation might find a way through. Neglect and issues in the op’s childhood and issues between her and her parents have driven the op to stop her DC seeing their grandparents. Therefore they are weaponised. Sad but true. They have never had any issues with the grandparents from what has been written. They are being denied access to their grandparents and not receiving cards, presents or even minimal contact.

After suffering years of emotional abuse OP has (very wisely) chosen to protect her children from experiencing similar.

Not having a relationship with grandparents is much better than having a toxic relationship.

And even if OP’s parents treated their grandchildren well, a relationship with them wouldn’t be worth them seeing their mum be treated poorly. OP is showing her children how to set boundaries. That’s a great thing.

What a strange thought process @TizerorFizz has, to push for relationships with abusive people. Most parents would protect their children from the potential to experience the same abuse. If the parents weren't abusive in the first place, they'd have a relationship. There is only themselves to blame.
OP grandparents rights don't exist here, but keep everything written down, what they put you through.

@TizerorFizz

I think you have used your children as a weapon and not seeing grandparents is not good for their emotional development. However the grandparents have no rights. Sorting something out at mediation would be better and your children should be consulted about what they want. You have made this decision but they have lost grandparents. It’s similar to bereavement for them. So sorting out your differences might be better for DC.

Sounds to me like you're projecting. It makes no sense for the OP to facilitate a relationship between her DC and DM if the DM is abusive. Indeed it would be incredibly irresponsible of her to do so.

If it were a disagreement over money, or property, or religion or politics for example, you might have a point. But in a case where abuse is involved you're entirely in the wrong.

@TizerorFizz

Interesting that you have chosen the phrase 'use them as a weapon' as that's exactly what my mother does.

This emotional abuse came to a head i. 2017 when she had a falling out with my brother that I wasn't in any way inolved in (he also lives over 100 miles from me). I finished work and switched on my phone to find multiple messages from her telling me how upset she was with both of us and how she now wanted nothing to do with me or my children and that she'd be known as [her name] not Nanny anymore.

I ignored them and didn't get involved. She then went on to send my SIL a text that said and I quote '[my nephew] was the only grandchild that ever felt real to me'.

It was at that point that I reflected on my entire life and identified the patterns of abuse. If you don't give her her way, she will take down everyone in her path. She then follows up with remorse and apologies and all is well until the next time.

Those messages showed me that she's now willing to bring my children into this cycle, so I chose to go NC to protect them.

My children have suffered bereavement of a Grandparent. I assure you the two things are very different.

Thank you to those who have understood and backed me up.

You have absolutely nothing to worry about. She will have to get a lawyer to proceed who will most certainly explain to her she has no chance. It is likely she is trying to intimidate and threaten you. Given your brother took this shameful role fo her messenger I would pass the message back: ' knock yourself out. There will be no mediation, she can proceed to court if she wants to, you are not even remotely interested'. I would also tell your brother you are disappointed he decided to get involved in her games