Grandparents rights and contact (currently NC)

[NoContactThankYou]

Name changed for privacy.

I'm wondering if anyone could offer any advice please.

I went NC with my mother in December 2017 following years of emotional abuse that all came to a head between November and December 2017.

Since then she has had no contact with my children (born 2011 and 2013). This is despite repeated efforts on her part including texts, emails and cards. On one occasion she had her partner knock our door with flowers and gifts whilst she waited in the car and more recently (July 2021) knocked on our door herself. Both times they were sent away and DC had no idea what had happened.

My brother rang me today to tell me that she was now going down the legal route. First with mediation and if we refuse that, she will take us to court. He passed on that should I allow her contact with my children, she will cease legal action.

I am well aware that she is trying to scare me into complying with her. I am standing my ground and won't be blackmailed. There will be no mediation and we are content to fight this all the way.

She's basing her right to access on Grandparents Rights and I'm fairly sure she doesn't have a case. She is effectively a stranger to my children, having not seen or spoken to them for four years, though they know of her through photographs and general stories. DC1 remembers her more so than DC2. She lives over 100 miles away and prior to NC saw them 2-3 times a year, perhaps up to 4 times if she popped in for lunch as she was passing to visit other family. We have never lived locally to her and she has never had them alone for more than a couple of hours at a time and those instances probably number less than five.

I have written evidence of her emotional abuse spanning from that period in November/December 2017 up to July 2020 via her emails and text messages. I could also provide oral evidence of emotional abuse and neglect from my own childhood, including allowing me to be physically abused by someone else and how I requested to be put into foster care as a result (and was).

I have no concerns about physical safeguarding if my children were to have contact, but both DH and I have huge concerns about emotional abuse based on previous patterns.

But still, I worry. What if they grant her contact? I don't know about the legal side of things so I am hoping that someone wise may be here to help.

Thank you.

@Skeptadad

I just do what I think is right DebbieHarrysCheekbones's if you feel continually piling on a person who has now left is appropriate then fair play. I don't think it's tasteful myself. Each to their own.

Sorry I just spat my cup of tea out laughing when I read this Come off it mate. If you try and defend the claptrap your brother in arms wrote then you’re proving my point and others

What? That a continuum of people saying the same thing over and over again is unnecessary? I think it is. I think s/he has the point. Telling someone they are wrong over and over again with increasing venom is not right. I don't think it's right to continue to kick someone when they are down.

I am not defending anything that has been said, I commented that I feel TizerorFizz probably didn't read it properly and that false allegations of domestic abuse are rife causing some people to lose their objectivity.

And yes my agenda is showing. I particularly dislike people who falsely accuse and that goes both ways. A dad who falsely accuses parental alienation is just as wrong as a mum who falsely claims domestic abuse.

@Skeptadad

What? That a continuum of people saying the same thing over and over again is unnecessary? I think it is. I think s/he has the point. Telling someone they are wrong over and over again with increasing venom is not right. I don't think it's right to continue to kick someone when they are down.

I am not defending anything that has been said, I commented that I feel TizerorFizz probably didn't read it properly and that false allegations of domestic abuse are rife causing some people to lose their objectivity.

And yes my agenda is showing. I particularly dislike people who falsely accuse and that goes both ways. A dad who falsely accuses parental alienation is just as wrong as a mum who falsely claims domestic abuse.

So why are you defending him them? His post was toxic provocative and off the mark

Practice what you preach

@TizerorFizz

I think you have used your children as a weapon and not seeing grandparents is not good for their emotional development. However the grandparents have no rights. Sorting something out at mediation would be better and your children should be consulted about what they want. You have made this decision but they have lost grandparents. It’s similar to bereavement for them. So sorting out your differences might be better for DC.

Did you actually read the post!

Read it again it clearly states why she should not have a relationship.

I find it amazing you think the kids should have a relationship with someone who was so awful her child asked to be put in foster care!

I don't think TizerorFizz is coming back so we can probably move on from there now. Thanks again to all who supported me.

@TizerorFizz

I think you have used your children as a weapon and not seeing grandparents is not good for their emotional development. However the grandparents have no rights. Sorting something out at mediation would be better and your children should be consulted about what they want. You have made this decision but they have lost grandparents. It’s similar to bereavement for them. So sorting out your differences might be better for DC.

What utter rubbish. Abusive parents shouldn't be given the opportunity to be grandparents, either the nice or abusive type. Just like parents there should be no rights, only responsibilities. No child suffered from being kept away from horrible people.

My children drew the short straw where grandparents were concerned. They are adults now and no hand wringing from them about how tough/sad it was.

Thought I'd pop on to update.

I have heard through the family grapevine (not my brother directly) that she has decided to drop the case. Apparently my reaction (laugh and say 'I'll see her in court) was the reason.

I am sure that she's just plotting her next move rather than accepting it, but for now I'll enjoy the peace.

Many thanks to those of you who offered support and handholding when I was fretting.

So it was just an empty threat in the hope that you will bend over. Glad it's worked out for you.

Yep. Another manipulation tactic. She dud say to my brother originally that if I allowed her access to the DC, she'd stop it all, so I knew she was trying to scare me.

However, she has previous of going as far as possible to ensure she gets her own way so I was concerned there was still a chance, hence my post.

Thanks again all for the support

Hi can i please ask how you got on in the end? We’re in a very similar situation at the moment

Hello.

It's all been very quiet ever since.
We still get birthday and Christmas cards come through the door. The DCs ones are always filled with long messages about how she's put £100 away for them every Christmas and birthday since they were born and to come and find her when they're 18 to get it. One year she'd actually put what the total will be at 18 in there too. Completely unnecessary since she actually had contact with and gave them presents until they were 4 and 6.
But that's how she works. She buys people. And if you accept the money/item, you are forever indebted to her and if you ever disagree with her she'll remind you how much you 'owe' her.
I still find it a bit stressful when they turn up, but she's got very distinctive handwriting so DH intercepts them for me (at my request). I only realised this year that she never sends him a card. He stopped talking to her two years before I did. She's obviously given up on getting anywhere with him.

Other than the cards, it's been a refreshingly quiet year. My brother no longer passes on any messages. My SIL let's me know when she's at their house so that my DC don't ring my nephew (they video call whilst gaming together), but I otherwise know nothing of her whereabout or activities. My nan has currently fallen out with her too, so I'm not getting battered about it from that side of the family either.

I'm so sorry to hear that you're having similar troubles. This thread was so wonderfully supportive and helpful to me.

Wrong.

Grandparents have been awarded full and shared custody

In individual cases where its in the best interests of the child. Not in this case.

This is not a helpful, or constructive comment.

The comment about grandparents having no rights is incorrect.

Cite your source please?

Because in the context of this thread, it is a comment that will cause upset and worried.

My source is a solicitors...

*Do grandparents have legal rights in the UK?

Grandparents do not have a right to see their grandchild in England and Wales and they also do not have automatic parental responsibility. It is not possible for grandparents to gain parental responsibility by applying for a Parental Responsibility Order.

However, although grandparents do not have legal rights to see their grandchildren, parents do have legal rights to choose who their children see, so try to refrain from heated arguments. If agreement cannot be reached there is provision for grandparents to make an application for an order in respect of time they spend with their grandchildren.*

Source: raydensolicitors.co.uk/areas/grandparents-legal-rights-uk/

@CrazCrashy

Hello, I am a lawyer (different area of law though) and this literally happened to my family.

Grandparents have the right to bring the application asking for access to the child. That's it. That doesn't mean they get anything, it just means they can apply.

From there, the grandparent needs to prove that a court order granting them rights is in the child's best interest. This is extremely hard to do, especially if they have been estranged for some time and have no knowledge or relationship with the children.

There is a lot of case law making it clear that unless there is compelling circumstances, parents should be left alone to parent as they wish and it's not the role of the court to peer over the shoulder of competent parents.

Cases where grandparents have achieved parental rights or visitation etc, are usually circumstances where the grandparent has at some point stood in the shoes of a parent (eg, a woman is on drugs, has a child young, leaves the child with her parents to raise for years and then comes back and wants to take the child away and not see her parents anymore. In that circumstance there might be a compelling argument that the child should not lose the relationship to someone who they have a close relationship.) that's the kind of situation the law is envisioning with regards to grandparents getting access.

A capable and loving mother who has made the decision to shield her children from someone she finds abusive and upsetting, is not the kind of situation where the court will want to step in. The rights of the child are at the centre, not the wishes of the grandparents.

From personal experience, it is deeply stressful and upsetting to have to defend your own right to parent in court. It's not helpful for people to post alarmist opinions that aren't based in fact.

OP, I hope you are well. So glad to hear she hasn't tried anything.

@Mum1909

I'm sorry to hear you are facing the same thing. Are they just threatening you at this point or have they taken further steps?

they have taken it further, had a first hearing which is a joke, the system is ruined. They have to now provide evidence of a relationship with our children, which there never has been! So we have to just trust it will work out ok in the long run and they will see it for what it is. Just incredibly frustrating that our rights as parents seem to mean nothing at this point, shocking that people can inflict this on families

@Mum1909 it's horrible. I just felt so angry and violated. Try to keep faith that the outcome will be correct, even if the process is infuriating.

It's ridiculous that they have the right to put parents through that much stress and expense.

I put up with extraordinary behaviour for years with my in laws, but then doing this made us finally close the door. I will never forgive them for it.

OP I have been reading your posts. Well done on standing up for your kids. Grandparents don't have automatic rights and must prove why they are entitled to access. She cannot prove this. Mediation is also optional but even if both parties agree you have to both want a resolution for it to work anyway.

I am low contact with one grandparent and non contact with another. This was a joint decision made between me and my husband about his family as it was not in our children's best interest to be in close contact. I am very glad about this decision now as I can see how damaging very close contact has been to some of the grandchildren particularly to the relationship with there own parents.

Also as someone who works in a role linked to what you have asked I can say grandparent contact is rarely if ever agreed by the courts. Unless it's proven the child is detrimentally impacted not having it.

Thank you for reaching out, it is strangely reassuring to know others are experiencing similar. It baffles me that anyone would act like this and expect a positive outcome. Good luck with yours

Baffles me too but you need to remember that you're dealing with people with a strong sense of entitlement and they think the rules don't apply.

I'm so sorry you're going through this.

@Ivyonafence with respect that you’re on the Internet. We have no way of checking your claims that you are a lawyer, and whilst yes I can understand the comments you make surrounding why somebody might be successful enforcing their rights as a grandparent. It is also incredibly unhelpful to make claims the grandparents have no rights. Some of them have an awful lot of rights. It is not black and white and it is not clear cut.

As are you a person on the internet, making claims. You've been asked to provide a source to your claims.

So please do so, or in the nicest possible way, get off my thread if you've nothing helpful to offer.