Grandparents rights and contact (currently NC)

[NoContactThankYou]

Name changed for privacy.

I'm wondering if anyone could offer any advice please.

I went NC with my mother in December 2017 following years of emotional abuse that all came to a head between November and December 2017.

Since then she has had no contact with my children (born 2011 and 2013). This is despite repeated efforts on her part including texts, emails and cards. On one occasion she had her partner knock our door with flowers and gifts whilst she waited in the car and more recently (July 2021) knocked on our door herself. Both times they were sent away and DC had no idea what had happened.

My brother rang me today to tell me that she was now going down the legal route. First with mediation and if we refuse that, she will take us to court. He passed on that should I allow her contact with my children, she will cease legal action.

I am well aware that she is trying to scare me into complying with her. I am standing my ground and won't be blackmailed. There will be no mediation and we are content to fight this all the way.

She's basing her right to access on Grandparents Rights and I'm fairly sure she doesn't have a case. She is effectively a stranger to my children, having not seen or spoken to them for four years, though they know of her through photographs and general stories. DC1 remembers her more so than DC2. She lives over 100 miles away and prior to NC saw them 2-3 times a year, perhaps up to 4 times if she popped in for lunch as she was passing to visit other family. We have never lived locally to her and she has never had them alone for more than a couple of hours at a time and those instances probably number less than five.

I have written evidence of her emotional abuse spanning from that period in November/December 2017 up to July 2020 via her emails and text messages. I could also provide oral evidence of emotional abuse and neglect from my own childhood, including allowing me to be physically abused by someone else and how I requested to be put into foster care as a result (and was).

I have no concerns about physical safeguarding if my children were to have contact, but both DH and I have huge concerns about emotional abuse based on previous patterns.

But still, I worry. What if they grant her contact? I don't know about the legal side of things so I am hoping that someone wise may be here to help.

Thank you.

As the grandchild of an emotionally abusive grandparent, please continue to stand your ground and protect them from her. I wish my parents had protected me and my sibling and we’ve both been damaged by it

Shes hasn't got a leg to stand on going down the grandparents rights route... as I understand it that is something they can possible use if they had been providing care or had some type of strong relationship with your children that you have unreasonably put a stop to..
But they haven't seen your kids for 4 years and weren't providing regular care for them before that... and you have evidence of abuse so a strong reason for not wanting them in your life
I wouldnt worry about this at all.. let them waste their money trying to go down that route. They won't get anywhere and they probably know that. They are just trying to scare you into submission.

Id honestly consider ringing the police and getting a harassment warning for them. If you have evidence they've been trying to contact you and turning up at your home after you have asked them not to... then the police will issue this. As long as you haven't been in some kind of dialogue with them and can show they have been sending unsolicited messages over time...I know this because I have had them issue one to someone for me... and all it was was messages. It doesnt have to be anything violent. Its considered harassment legally just if they repeatedly contact you despite being asked not to, and definitely if they repeatedly turn up at your home uninvited

I think you are doing the right thing here .Your DC will be very confused, and you will worry that she may abuse them in a similar way to you when you were a child . As far as I know in England there are no laws to enforce a GP rights, so I think she is calling your bluff.

@LadyFlumpalot

Hang on... your mother messaged you back in 2017 as per the quote below:

"This emotional abuse came to a head i. 2017 when she had a falling out with my brother that I wasn't in any way inolved in (he also lives over 100 miles from me). I finished work and switched on my phone to find multiple messages from her telling me how upset she was with both of us and how she now wanted nothing to do with me or my children and that she'd be known as [her name] not Nanny anymore.

I ignored them and didn't get involved. She then went on to send my SIL a text that said and I quote '[my nephew] was the only grandchild that ever felt real to me'."

And you cheerfully complied with her wishes to have nothing more to do with you... now she's trying to take you to court for simply following her wishes?

Yep. Because she changed her mind a few days later and I was inundated with apologetic messages telling me that she'd overreacted and that she didn't mean it.

She tries every tactic in the book. Intimidation, grovelling, reminding you of everything she's done for you and telling you you're ungrateful. She flips between them to see which one will work.

The email from July 2020 contained a paragraph about her predicted early demise and how not seeing the DC made her not want to live anymore. Some solid emotional blackmail there. Thing is, she used to repeatedly tell me when I was a teen that she wanted to end her life. So I've heard it all before. I still have the email, I kept everything.

It baffles me why anyone thinks they have a right to contact with anyone else's children. Sounds like she had her chance to be a decent mother and she blew it.

I bet she doesn't even want contact with them as she was hardly invested in them before. What she wants is control. Seen it all before with my own toxic mother. Let her crack on OP, she'll get nowhere. And if it all gets too much, emigrate. Worked for me.

Our mediation failed based on the initial meetings. My in laws basically insisted on shared parental rights (every other weekend, every special occasion, access to medical information, it went on and on).
You have to wonder how these professionals keep a straight face when presented with these frankly batshit demands.

I mean it’s one thing to want contact with your grandchildren or to state that you do, to want to see them, have a relationship with them whatever and to present that as what you want. But to demand shared parental rights? Just on what planet did they think anyone would take them remotely seriously. I would have found it hard not to laugh in their faces at that.

@BringBackCoffeeCreams

I bet she doesn't even want contact with them as she was hardly invested in them before. What she wants is control. Seen it all before with my own toxic mother. Let her crack on OP, she'll get nowhere. And if it all gets too much, emigrate. Worked for me.

Ha! That thought genuinely crossed my mind!

it is good to be reminded that the courts are mostly manned by perfectly sensible and reasonable people.

We have a family member who sent a court action letter to my Mum demanding access to family photos.

Court said meeting/mediation first.
My Mum did not want to see this family member, she is NC with her. So my Dad went on her behalf. Simply stated that she was welcome to take any copies that she liked and that she had never actually asked.
requested that the originals we not handed over to her but a third party held them.

All official parties concerned were more than happy, with this reasonable and sensible solution. Family member looked pretty stupid.

Please remember that your mother does t just get to apply for contact once you have refused visitation. First she needs to apply to the court for leave to make the application. It is at this point I expect the court to refuse such leave.

Also - why are people posting moral opinions on this thread. I thought this topic was for legal advice. Plenty of room over at AIBU for every bat shit opinion going ... just not the right thing here . Just confuses issues.

@tigerorfizz - Grandparents can indeed have PR. I am a grandparent carer with PR. I stepped in to prevent my grandchildren going into care. I find your comments reminiscent of a particularly cruel CAFCASS officer. You say you are not projecting, but your use of words such as "weaponising" is indicative of some experience or issue in this area.

I had to pass the threshold for permission to apply. It was pretty much a shoo-in. But they were already living with me. It didn't stop the opposing barrister trying to deny the application. His argument was so odd, the Judge even asked him to repeat it.

Your mother op is just trying to frighten you. As pp's have said, family courts are very unpredictable because the individual judge has a wide discretion. I don't think your dm has had any legal advice at all because she would have been told how poor her case was. If you do get a legal letter, please remember they are only being paid to do so. They have no authority at all.

@TizerorFizz

I think you have used your children as a weapon and not seeing grandparents is not good for their emotional development. However the grandparents have no rights. Sorting something out at mediation would be better and your children should be consulted about what they want. You have made this decision but they have lost grandparents. It’s similar to bereavement for them. So sorting out your differences might be better for DC.

Did you not read OP's comment about what her mother exposed her to as a child and how she asked to go into foster care as a result??? What a horrible thing to accuse her of doing. Awful.

She sounds awful. Stand your ground.

I think I'd be telling the brother that you won't be allowing contact and she is of course free to go to court but you will submit all your evidence of her abuse (and list some - your childhood, the messages, etc) and say you're surprised she would want all that evidence to be made public but it's her choice.

@TizerorFizz

I think you have used your children as a weapon and not seeing grandparents is not good for their emotional development. However the grandparents have no rights. Sorting something out at mediation would be better and your children should be consulted about what they want. You have made this decision but they have lost grandparents. It’s similar to bereavement for them. So sorting out your differences might be better for DC.

Very judgy. The OP stated that she had been subject to emotional abuse from her mother. Why should she then, allow potentially, her own children to be subject to the same thing? OP is NOT using her children as a weapon; she is protecting them from what appears to be a malign influence

Some of you didn’t grow up in emotionally abusive households and it shows 😂

I understand that you've said that you've experienced emotional abuse, I don't know your relationship with your mother but I'm sure she would have another story to tell and she may say that via the court?
It's an incredibly sad situation especially as you say that you had some contact before with your parents.
However as it stands grandchildren have no rights to see grandparents in the UK, however grandparents can apply for permission to see their grandchildren, if they have a solicitor they will argue their case.

Refusing mediation is your choice but courts don't always look upon that favourably - they can mediate whilst you are in different rooms, and you can explain to the mediator your reasons for not wanting your children to see their grandparents - one of my friends did this with her ex.
In reality OP family courts really have no power, it's probably your mother indicating she doesn't expect any contact with you in the future - court is very final, so in this respect it sounds like it's what you want.

Thanks to those that pointed out that I posted on legal not AIBU. I didn't post to question whether I did the right thing, I posted for legal advice. So thank you to those posters that have offered support.

I'm feeling much calmer about it all. I know in my heart that she doesn't stand a chance.

I understand what you're saying about being open to mediation. My concern is that she'll view that as an opening, as resuming contact being something I might be persuaded to do. I do think that firm, immovable boundaries are the right approach with her. You can't give her anything as she'll use it relentlessly. But I can explain that when I refuse.

I told my dad and stepmum last night. My dad has assured me that should he be required to, he'll back me and provide his own evidence of emotional abuse and unstable behaviour. She treats me the way she used to treat him.

I went back through my messages recently and found an exchange where in the midst of it coming to a head I had confirmed that she was still coming to see me and my children on a certain date. Then a message from her after confirming to say that she wasn't coming to see us after all because of the falling out she'd had with my brother. That very brief exchange sums up my willingness to allow her access and her refusing to see them because she was angry. Hopefully that alone should prove that she's not a stable presence.

Once again, thank you for your support. It is so appreciated.

@TizerorFizz

I think you have used your children as a weapon and not seeing grandparents is not good for their emotional development. However the grandparents have no rights. Sorting something out at mediation would be better and your children should be consulted about what they want. You have made this decision but they have lost grandparents. It’s similar to bereavement for them. So sorting out your differences might be better for DC.

Oh fuck off, have you not read the OP's posts about her own emotional abuse as a kid, that resulted in her asking to be - and then actually placed in care? The dc only ever met their dgm a handful of times, its not a bereavement as there was barely a relationship in the first place, never mind the nc for the last 4 years.

Your dm hasn't got a chance op - there are cases where a dgp can evidence a good, strong, frequent relationship, and contact has been awarded. This is not the case here.

I think TizerorFizz has the point now. This many people piling on is distasteful and is starting to look very unpleasant/bullying.

Why not ascribe best intensions and assume s/he missed that bit. It's hard not to jump to conclusions these days with so many people falsely alleging domestic abuse. This causes genuine cases of abuse like OP to be met with skepticism in some quarters.

It doesn't sound like she has a chance. There is no existing relationship to maintain here, even in 2017 there wasn't.

Tell your brother to stop being her go between too. Its just another way of abusing you.

@Skeptadad

I think TizerorFizz has the point now. This many people piling on is distasteful and is starting to look very unpleasant/bullying.

Why not ascribe best intensions and assume s/he missed that bit. It's hard not to jump to conclusions these days with so many people falsely alleging domestic abuse. This causes genuine cases of abuse like OP to be met with skepticism in some quarters.

Might have known you’d step in to assist your compadre

Careful, your agenda is showing

I just do what I think is right DebbieHarrysCheekbones's if you feel continually piling on a person who has now left is appropriate then fair play. I don't think it's tasteful myself. Each to their own.