Grandparents rights and contact (currently NC)

[NoContactThankYou]

Name changed for privacy.

I'm wondering if anyone could offer any advice please.

I went NC with my mother in December 2017 following years of emotional abuse that all came to a head between November and December 2017.

Since then she has had no contact with my children (born 2011 and 2013). This is despite repeated efforts on her part including texts, emails and cards. On one occasion she had her partner knock our door with flowers and gifts whilst she waited in the car and more recently (July 2021) knocked on our door herself. Both times they were sent away and DC had no idea what had happened.

My brother rang me today to tell me that she was now going down the legal route. First with mediation and if we refuse that, she will take us to court. He passed on that should I allow her contact with my children, she will cease legal action.

I am well aware that she is trying to scare me into complying with her. I am standing my ground and won't be blackmailed. There will be no mediation and we are content to fight this all the way.

She's basing her right to access on Grandparents Rights and I'm fairly sure she doesn't have a case. She is effectively a stranger to my children, having not seen or spoken to them for four years, though they know of her through photographs and general stories. DC1 remembers her more so than DC2. She lives over 100 miles away and prior to NC saw them 2-3 times a year, perhaps up to 4 times if she popped in for lunch as she was passing to visit other family. We have never lived locally to her and she has never had them alone for more than a couple of hours at a time and those instances probably number less than five.

I have written evidence of her emotional abuse spanning from that period in November/December 2017 up to July 2020 via her emails and text messages. I could also provide oral evidence of emotional abuse and neglect from my own childhood, including allowing me to be physically abused by someone else and how I requested to be put into foster care as a result (and was).

I have no concerns about physical safeguarding if my children were to have contact, but both DH and I have huge concerns about emotional abuse based on previous patterns.

But still, I worry. What if they grant her contact? I don't know about the legal side of things so I am hoping that someone wise may be here to help.

Thank you.

I didn't say grandparents have no rights. I said they have the right to make an application.

Some grandparents are successful on their applications and then obtain additional rights via a court order. The order gives them the rights, not the fact they are grandparents. But grandparents obtaining an order in their favour is rare and if you read the case law (which sets the precedent that guides the courts) it tends to be contained to situations which do not in anyway resemble the OP's.

There is also specific precedent (that has been applied many times) instructing the court not to interfere unless the best interests of the child requires it.

Anything can happen in court, it's true. But courts apply legislation and case law as well as common sense in these situations- all of which fall on the side of the OP.

maybe post a link to the legislation or case or even an article you think supports you.

BlubFestival · 03/01/2022 23:55
Where is this? No part of UK has such a thing as grandparents rights.

That was the original comment which is factually incorrect

@CrazCrashy you might be thinking of France, where grandparents do have rights and the onus is on the parents to prove they shouldn't see the children.

Also that's not my comment.

There's some confusion I think because once they are before the court grandparents have no right to anything. Their right was to be heard in court and when they are before a court- they've had that already. End of rights. The starting point in the hearing is that they have no rights, the rights /best interest of the child is what is relevant and grandparents have to prove that.

If a grandparent got to court and said 'i am grandparent. My daughter is being spiteful to me. I want my rights. I am so sad, I demand my time with my grandchildren.' That would all be irrelevant. The court doesn't care what grandparents want or how they feel, the legislation doesn't direct them to care about that. It directs the court to consider the child's best interest and various rights. Which is very hard to do when you don't have a meaningful relationship with the child.

In what circumstances would the court think it is in the best interests of a child to be placed in the care of someone they don't know, against the wishes of their parent? If you read the case law (which I promise you I did when my abusive in laws did this to me)- very limited circumstances lend themselves to it.

Sensible people don't do this to their children. They would apologise, seek counseling, ask respectfully to be a part of their lives. They would want to reconcile with their child instead of thinking demanding their entitlement over the grandchildren will be in anyone's best interest.

Anything can happen, but the OP can be as confident as anyone can going into this shitty situation

You still haven't cited your sources for this.

Could we ignore this poster now please. I'd rather the thread wasn't derailed with someone who isn't here to help.

@CrazCrashy are you this much of a dick in real life or just when you can hide behind the anonymity of the internet? Absolutely no need for your nasty comments toward the OP, who's looking for advice on a difficult situation.

Unless they virtually brought up the GCs and had a long and close relationship with them, they won't get anywhere. Go to mediation (expensive) but I doubt it will get that far once the evidence and witness statements are provided.

Did this ever get to court do you mind tell me how it turned out please?

Hello.

Nope, I don't mind at all.

Nothing ever came of it. I don't know if she even started to seek legal advice and was told it wouldn't get anywhere, or if it was yet again an example of her manipulation and emotional abuse and she was all talk.

She occasionally still tries to get me to speak to her. Within this year alone I have had a long voicemail, and my brother once again ringing me on her behalf (he was swiftly told to knock it off). He even passed on the message that she was okay with it if I didn't want to talk to her, but would like to see the children.

Prior to that she turned up on my doorstep again. I wasn't home, but DH and DC2 were. Apparently she was hammering on the door with force. DH had spotted it was her, so didn't answer, however, she knew someone was home as DC2 was watching TV in the living room, and you can see the TV from outside. DH told DC2 that it was kids and to ignore it. They were very indignant at the rudeness and told me about it when I got home. DH had texted me whilst I was out to see how long I'd be as I'd only popped to the shop with DC1, and to warn me she was there. Thankfully she was gone when I got back.

I have decided that if she does that again, I will be contacting the police about a non-molestation order as we are entitled to live our lives without harassment.

Birthday and Christmas cards still arrive for each of us every year. They go straight in the recycling. On the odd occasion we open the kids ones (without them knowing), they are full of talk about how she's got lots of money saved up for them (complete with written calculations of 18x200=3600 based on £100 each birthday and Christmas from birth to 18) so they should come and find her when they turn 18.

Amazing how persistent our mothers are, OP. When this thread popped up again, I re-read my own contribution, and my predictions were bang on. She colluded with my abusive ex to see my DC while they were with him on holiday, arranging a meal out for her birthday and Christmas for a couple of years in a row, but it's tapered off now. She's given up writing cards and letters, and the last contact I had with her was when she rang me last summer from a new number that I immediately blocked. My DC have no conflicting feelings about her - she's simply a strange, unkind person they happen to be related to, and they are old enough to refuse to see her.

Not sure all this is healthy for anyone in the end. Sounds like unbelievably hard work and your children will be curious in the end. Revenge is not always the best policy.

@Mum1909

How did your situation pan out?

Hey, we got taken to court, so had to pay court fees x 2, because grandparents don’t automatically have a right to go to court, but unless there is documented safeguarding risks, they allow it to proceed (dont get me started on this stupid system!)
the whole experience was horrible, we had visits from social workers, who were equally confused by the whole thing as we were! They had to interview us, the children and their nursery workers. 😔
in the end, their own barrister was amazing for us and clearly saw it for what it was and basically got them to drop it, after the 2 court cases (she was the 3rd barrister they instructed…!)
we still get presents dropped off on the doorstep for birthday and Christmas, they’re never age appropriate, so my husband and i just deal with that quietly as i’m sick of letting the stress of it get to us, it took its toll.
if anyone is in a similar situation, now or in the future, feel free to reach out as there isnt much guidance but we learnt a-lot from going through it all!!
xx

This sounds very familiar, she doesn’t have a case but she can take you to court. She will have to provide evidence of an existing relationship, which she cant. We refused mediation as we felt there was no option in which we would allow contact, plus it would always try to escalate. Luckily, the professionals often see it for what it is and are very unlikely to rule against you unless they have safeguarding concerns. Hopefully they wont pursue it, i often see on here that grandparents use empty threats. Dont give in, you know whats best for your children and if it does escalate i’m happy to have a call to explain the services and processes we used x

I despair that there's people out there that think this is okay. It's so freaking bizarre!

I'm sure OP thinks that protecting her children is worth the 'unbelievably hard work.'

What a curious thing to say.
Do you really think that this is about revenge on the OP’s or any parents in a similar position?
Have you yourself actually been in this situation? I have, and so can assure you that most family court judges don’t stop grandparents from being awarded permission to apply to pursue contact with grandchildren unless there is an evidential basis for doing so and it is not in the children’s best interests.
Children are curious about a great many things. In this specific context for the OP it will be easier to explain and justify a course of action that resulted in them
being kept safe as children then try and justify retrospectively why they couldn’t be arsed to prevent their exposure to damaging and abusive behaviours.

• that should read revenge on the OP’s or any other parents part 🙄

People’s tolerances are very different. Parents don’t want dc to see grandparents as punishment for something they don’t like. It could be a false allegation. We have no idea. It’s a personal view and it’s rarely examined in court. Grandparents do tend to lose court cases as they don’t have rights, but few go that far. Who really knows if they are that bad or not or if it’s 50:50 in the toxic stakes? The whole scenario is never examined. Just dc never see grandparents again because parent says so. Mediation would be much better. At least both sides could examine calmly what the issues are.

If you have no idea then why are you assuming that the parent is overreacting and in the wrong?

Mediation also doesn't work with emotional abusers.

They would need to show it was in the children’s best interests to be given permission to apply for a CAO to spend time with their grandchild. That doesn’t mean it would be successful or what they wanted just that they could file an application with the Family Court.
Try not to worry as the process will in itself would give you the opportunity to present the back history. It would probably trip them up as even mediation would expose their attitude towards you.

Abusive toxic grandparents - like abusive toxic parents - most certainly do use the family courts as a vehicle to pursue this agenda. As several people posting here know all too well. I will respectfully suggest you have no experience of either based on these sort of speculative and I think quite deliberately provocative comments on what is a deeply distressing and traumatising process for so many.

Furthermore not only is mediation useless with these sorts of people it is not even recommended since their behaviours render it irreconcilable.

Of course it would be naive at best ignorant at worst to assume that there are not parents who are horrible and stop decent grandparents who love and care for their grandchildren from seeing their children. That’s why the Court allows for grandparents to apply for permission to pursue a CAO. It’s all evidence based and therefore if their application for permission to apply is refused there will
be an evidential reason for that.
Last year the MoJ reported a 25% increase in the number of non PR private court applications. Given that 10% of all previous applications were not made by those with PR historically anyway and that over half of that 10% were grandparents it’s safe to assume the 25% rise would continue that proportional representation of grandparents. i don’t know what the outcomes of those cases were in terms of success but those applications have to prove the following:

• an existing relationship
• that permission to apply would not adversely impact the CHILD
• the application is for genuine reasons

the bar isn’t exactly high. So if you don’t get permission how low must you and your motives be? Perhaps that’s why threads like this are started. A toxic parent who is punishing a decent loving grandparent probably isn’t inclined to start a thread on mumsnet about it either since they are predisposed to only value their own opinion.