My son's mother wants to move abroad for a year and take him.

[Snurt]

Hi, just wondering if the collective wisdom of mumsnet could offer me some advice, hopefully it won't matter that technically speaking I'm more of a dad than a mum!

My son is 9, I was there when he was born and have been fully involved in his entire life, despite never having been in a relationship with his mother. Current arrangements are that he spends 5 nights out of every 14 with me. His mother has since married and has two other much younger children with her husband. Her husband's work want to send him to the US for a chunk of time, at the very minimum a year but it sounds like it could easily become a year and a half or two years. She wants to go, with all the children, offering skype and school holiday visits back. I am, as you'd imagine, not happy about this, both for the disruption of his schooling and my losing regular contact with him.

I know that I can legally prevent them from taking my son, as I have parental responsibility, unless they get a court order - what are the chances that they could get a court order in this sort of situation? They would cite his relationship with his half-brothers, and that his step-father would lose his job if he doesn't go (I don't know if this is true but it's how it's been presented to me).

Should I be looking to get a prohibited steps order, or is my having parental responsibility and making clear my lack of consent for him to go enough? We have so far managed to deal with things without involving lawyer/courts, so there are no residency orders in place.

Any advice on the legalities or feedback on whether my stance is reasonable or not welcomed.

JeffTracy - there are a lot of complications with my suggestion, but I do think that the way to approach this is as a negotiation, rather than an attempt to impose a veto that the OP may not even have.

Saying to his ex "I'm concerned about how this will affect my relationship with my kid. If you are to go and take him with you, these are the things I think are fair" seems a better way to go than "I'm going to fight you to the death to make sure you and your husband live your lives according to my edict".

"It would however undoubtedly be changed, in an extremely detrimental way"

The first part is given, the second is not.

IF this is a temporary move, then it is far from a certainty that your relationship would be demoted to that of "peripheral figure".

9 year old boys worship their Dads IME, you won't just become a peripheral figure because of physical distance for a while.

Would you like it if he came to live with you during his holidays?

You could arrange a really cool summer where the two of you had lots of time together. And it would be months of being the main parent. How would your work be if you were to take a month or two of unpaid leave?

There are ways to make this a really good experience for you both when you are ready to stop seeing it as some unbelievable liberty that a completely normal situation has come up for this family.

I have no idea whether you can put together a legally enforceable agreement about his return. But that's what I'd be seeking legal advice about.

"and if son comes to spend all summer with dad, and dad is working then what will child be doing all day? when he no longer has school friends in uk?"

He won't have any friends in the UK in a year's time?

WTF? Of course he will. Selling him on the chance to spend the summer with his old friends and his Dad should be a piece of piss.

And his mother isn't really going to be arguing that it's unfair for a parent to be away from their child for months at a time, is she?

The trouble, spidookly, is that the mother isn't saying it's just for a year, that's just a minimum, and there's no way to enforce the child's return once he is gone.

At the very least, Snurt, I hope you take on board ChippingIn's wise way of approaching the child's mother and go from there.

But I do think you need to see a solicitor to get some advice and knowledge about what exactly your rights are.

"They need to move for a few years"

No I'm pretty sure they don't need to move but have decided it would suit them to do so.

They presumably think that whatever America holds for them (could it be more money?) is worth sacrificing the relationship currently between Father and Son (to some extent at least).

Of course discussing this would be the best way forward but if they are adamant that they are going I don't see much room for compromise. The idea of 6 weeks solid in the summer is lovely but unworkable for most (esp single) parents as the OP is.

As for guaranteeing their return from America.... Good Luck.

OP I hope they're just floating the idea at the moment and not dead set on it.

But the other trouble is that it looks like she might well be able to take him even without the OP's agreement.

So putting in place some kind of agreed framework for how this will work, and the limitations on it, seems more sensible and more likely to work out for the OP, than the digging in of heels.

If the boy goes on the understanding that his real home is in the UK, and that he will be spending lots of time there with his Dad, and that he will be coming back for secondary school, it will be a lot more difficult for them to just change those arrangements at the last minute.

I see only downsides to attempting to block this. I think there is a lot to be gained by agreeing to a temporary move based on lots of time at home with Dad.

And what happens when if, after one year, she says they're staying for 2, then 2 becomes 3.... What, if anything, will the OP be able to do about it from 4,000 miles away?
I think the child's mother has to suck it up, to be frank. She has a child from another relationship, so she cannot consider this opportunity in the same way as someone without that responsibility.

spidookly I don't think you can imagine what real life would be like in this situation

lovely long summers, bonding?

possible reality - after a year apart, bonds broken with old friends, father working, trying to get as much time off as poss but getting frustrated, money short after a trip to the US or too, Dad not wanting to get cross about anything because this is precious time, six weeks thinking I want my school mates and I wish it wasn't raining all the time.. etc etc

And how many children would want to spend the whole summer away from their home? (as that is what America will become)

My wife and I were thinking a couple of years back about moving to the other side of our city. Would have meant a change of schools, but a nicer property. The kids were aghast at the thought of leaving school, so we moved local. I remember moving 8 miles away as a kid aged 9. It really affected me negatively. If I was now offered a job abroad for lots more money I'd turn it down for my children's sake.

Say they move to the US. In 2 years time the family decides to stay put. OP argues that as the temporary arrangement has lapsed his son should return to the UK and attend the school there. I imagine the family would successfully argue that it is VERY disruptive - moving alone, new school ('again, just as he started making good new friends' etc), separation from the mother and the siblings, has to re-establish relationship iwth now estranged father...

I think they have very persuasive arguments to keep the boy with the family in the US.

OP, you should not allow your son to move so far away in the first place.

Shame this has descended into a gender bunfight on top of everything else!

I am female, with 2 stepkids who my DP would be devastated to be separated from - we have our step/kids every other week and despite the split being 8 years ago, he still isn't used to them not being around all the time and misses them when they are not here - even though they are actually only 10 minutes away! We also have a child of our own.
I posted earlier on this thread, my partner and his ex agreed when they split that they would stay living near to each other so that the kids could move easily between their 2 homes and keep the disturbance to the split minimal. I think this has worked well and has given the kids stability and normality.
It is a shame that some people think you should have less of a say about what happens to your son than your ex, I for one don't agree with that opinion.
Sensible advice seems to be to talk to your ex and her husband and find out more, like is this a case of move to US or no job, or an opportunity they want to take, in which case you can put your point about the downsides of this arrangement, or, if it is a situation where they have to move, to find out what the nature of the contract is. It is not unreasonable to discuss the potential arrangement of your son staying in the UK and visiting the US during the holidays or the step dad going alone to the US, especially if it 'only a year'. Your ex is not being reasonable in presenting you with a fait accompli on this.

"And what happens when if, after one year, she says they're staying for 2, then 2 becomes 3.... What, if anything, will the OP be able to do about it from 4,000 miles away?"

Well my way, with an agreement in place that the son is party to, and agreed between everybody, it will be a lot more difficult for them to just decide to stay away.

Your way he takes her to court, he loses, she goes anyway and then doesn't bother to consider his feelings at all as by that point they hate each other.

She doesn't have to suck it up. There's a good chance that if the OP fought this through the courts that he'd lose.

Gooseberry I guess if you go through life looking for how shit things could turn out, then you'll always be able to find reasons to be miserable and negative and never do anything.

There are different ways to approach this. The OP isn't in control of all them.

He can't, for example, insist that this family doesn't go. That's not in his gift. He can try and stop his son going, but the rest of the family might go regardless.

IMO his best option is to accept it and try to put an agreement in place for how it will be managed to make sure his relationship with is son isn't too badly affected, and with definite plans that mean return is expected.

If he finds that his ex balks at attempts to secure a secondary school place and gain commitment that the child will be back by then, then he knows she is planning to move without any definite plans to return. That will change everything in his favour if he tries to fight it, because permanent moves are viewed differently from temporary ones.

I don't - I just have experience of long summers with children home from abroad. Is that alright?

I'm not suggesting doing nothing - far from it.

Once they are there, he is more or less powerless. They can agree to all sorts of things beforehand, first class round the world tickets and limos to and from the airport and every summer in a beach resort in the Maldives if they've a mind to it. It will mean nothing, nothing, if they change their minds, apart from a very long, very expensive, very hostile and very likely to fail, legal battle.

Far better to be aware of the worst scenario and prepare for it. This is his child. He's already said he feels he can't trust them. You have no idea if they are more trustworthy than he says.

Thing is, if the OP forces his ex to go to court, it'll effectively take money away from his son?

I've had a google and it looks like a temporary removal from jurisdiction (which is enforcable, there will be an end date and they will be breaking the law to stay longer), would be likely to be granted if the Op's ex could demonstrate the child would be well provided for and had access plans in place, which it sounds like they do?

I suppose the OP could force their hand by making them do that and wait, presuming the job offer would expire. Could backfire though if his ex and her H get permission for 1-2 years and the DS is that much older, would be far more disruptive if he was 11 or 12.

The bad feeling it would generate, though, and the money it would cost. Whew. OP, what does she say to your concerns? Would you consider mediation?

"It will mean nothing, nothing, if they change their minds, apart from a very long, very expensive, very hostile and very likely to fail, legal battle. "

It won't mean nothing if a 9 year old boy is depending on them to keep their part of the bargain.

Presuming these people love that boy as much as the OP, they are not going to renege on deals with his father that he was party to. He will want to see his Dad. You don't wipe out 9 years of hero worship with a few months at a new school and a fake new accent.

If this boy understands that he is going to America for a year or so, but will be coming back to England to spend holidays with his Dad and catch up with his English friends then his mother will have a pretty hard time changing that arrangement.

Similarly it will be harder for her to make a unilateral decision about staying longer, because it will be explicit in the agreement that was made that the Dad and the son can't be permanently separated.

Not everything has to be legally enforceable. He can insist on a clear agreement that is morally enforceable.

A lot will become clear if he asks for the things I'm suggesting. If he says he wants holidays (which will give him approximately the same % time of contact as he has now) and a definite commitment to a return date (at least for his son), it will be interesting to see how his ex reacts.

If she starts making arguments about not wanting to be separated from her boy for months at a time then it's a whole new ballgame in terms of the discussion. If she is stalling about a definite return date and start of secondary school, again you now have new information that will be helpful to you.

As I see it the OP is more likely to come out of this well if he comes to the table with "I have a lot of reservations about this, but these are the terms under which I think it could possibly work" than if he won't even entertain the idea.

It often tickles me how we tend to take over threads with rampant speculation. Perhaps now that OP will be taking legal advice we should just leave him to it. If she wants to go abroad she'll have to thoroughly research it, and lay it all on a plate for OP and the court (if he doesn't agree). There's plenty to do. No need to get het up about it.

Or maybe we should talk about what we want in as het up a fashion as we choose and not have to suffer the smug amusement of people who like to drop in and insinuate that we are all foolish for trying to help.

I don't think any parent has the right to move a child away from the other parent who has been fully involved in the child's life. I don't care what a great life the child is going to have in America (and they wouldn't know that in advance), it is wrong.

Could you talk to your ex? Open out your heart to her and tell her that you don't want to disrupt things for her but you really don't want to be apart from your son. Skype and school holidays is a shit deal, I'd have to kill myself if fate dealt me that blow.

"I'd have to kill myself if fate dealt me that blow."

Yeah, that would be great for your child, wouldn't it?

FFS it's a figure of speech for the crapness of it all, not that I have actually planned to top myself should that hypothetical situation arise .

Skype is not going to let you continue to be the father you have been so far.

I'd fight this. So legal battles are painful and expensive, still there is no way my child would be taken thousands of miles away without a huge battle.

The OP isn't choosing to put everyone through this potential dreadful legal mess anyway. His son's mother and step-father are! They have put The OP in an impossible position with their selfishness.

OP: I agree with others that you ought to seek legal advice now. You can keep things friendly with the mother but if they are determined to forge ahead you will at least know accurately what your options are. Good luck.

I Agree with BabyBarristers post:
The Court of Appeal has recently restated the principles in Payne and Payne and stated that they are not intending other comments to be read as undermining the case, so for good or bad your ex is likely to be allowed to go IMO unless someone appeals to be the Supreme Court or there is new legislation
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Although it is likely after a protracted legal process that your son's mother will be given leave to go, I would consider the following:

You could represent yourself (ie be litigant in person) with the help of Families Need Fathers and a McKenzie Friend This will greatly reduce any legal costs. Though at later stages in the process you might need to employ a solicitor and barrister.
Action through the Family Courts can take months or even years, that time delay in itself could scupper your son's stepfathers chance of securing that job ;-)

In short taking this to court need not cost you the earth and could bugger the step fathers chance at the job anyway.

You need to gather any/all evidence you can that the move is for the benefit of your son's mother and step father, but not your son.
Also do not delay if you decide to take this to court you need to act quickly. Your sons mother has probably already taken legal advice.

Good Luck with what ever you decide.

I moved my child away from her father 2 years ago (she was 9 at the time), not as far as America, but, 500 odd miles which is still a huge distance in terms of access.

My exh was not happy, i could understand that, he said he was going to fight to stop us going. My solicitor told me that the courts wouldn't necessarily side with me as her mother, but, would be more inclined to side with her father. She said the courts generally frown upon women who want to take their children away from their father's, especially father's who have a good, consistent relationship with said child/ren. If i was to have any chance of winning i would have to provide fantastic reasons for moving, reasons that could not even hint i was trying to get her away from her father (which wasn't my reason for wanting to move anyway). In any case, i could not move without a court order or written permission from him. I wasn't confident about winning. The solicitor said that even if i had proposed to move 10 miles away he probably would have been still able to stop me on the same grounds.

As it turns out he didn't take me to court and i got a letter from his solicitor giving me permission to move.

My daughter hasn't forgotten her Dad, she speaks to him every other day, webcams once a week and we go down to where he is as often as we can. It's not an ideal situation for them, but, my daughter doesn't love him any less or feel loved any less.

Good luck with whatever you decide to do.

And how would you have felt if he'd have done this to you?

Webcam that's ok then.

Equality when it suits.

Much the same as him, i'd have been devastated, i would have fought. It's not a situation that ever would have been likely, my daughter has always lived with me, she always will.

I said it's not an ideal situation, but, we all work hard to make the best of it. My exh gave me permission to move.

I was just trying to provide a bit of hope for the OP.

Ds and I spent two years seeing dh every six weeks as it was too costly and too much time to get to Cornwall from Brussels at weekends, so we saw each other at half terms and holidays.

Eventually, because we were all getting a bit 'distant', Ds and I moved to Brussels and now ds and dh get on really well. Had I still been in UK, then I dread to think what their relationship would have been like.

The OP is to be commended for being willing to ensure that he still has a relationship with his son and isn't willing to be conveniently airbrushed out of the picture.