My son's mother wants to move abroad for a year and take him.

[Snurt]

Hi, just wondering if the collective wisdom of mumsnet could offer me some advice, hopefully it won't matter that technically speaking I'm more of a dad than a mum!

My son is 9, I was there when he was born and have been fully involved in his entire life, despite never having been in a relationship with his mother. Current arrangements are that he spends 5 nights out of every 14 with me. His mother has since married and has two other much younger children with her husband. Her husband's work want to send him to the US for a chunk of time, at the very minimum a year but it sounds like it could easily become a year and a half or two years. She wants to go, with all the children, offering skype and school holiday visits back. I am, as you'd imagine, not happy about this, both for the disruption of his schooling and my losing regular contact with him.

I know that I can legally prevent them from taking my son, as I have parental responsibility, unless they get a court order - what are the chances that they could get a court order in this sort of situation? They would cite his relationship with his half-brothers, and that his step-father would lose his job if he doesn't go (I don't know if this is true but it's how it's been presented to me).

Should I be looking to get a prohibited steps order, or is my having parental responsibility and making clear my lack of consent for him to go enough? We have so far managed to deal with things without involving lawyer/courts, so there are no residency orders in place.

Any advice on the legalities or feedback on whether my stance is reasonable or not welcomed.

'Surely it will be on your side that they are going only for a year - that is so very disruptive?'

That's a minimum. The actual time length is to be determined.

Can't you say - look if it's only for a year the least disruptive and best thing is for him to stay.

I suspect they are fobbing you of with "a year" and if you put this to them - and you have a lot of arguments on your side about stability, friendships, educatin - you will find out what their real intentions are.

Expat - this is what I think. It won't be a year. It very rarely is.

OP I hope you feel supported here. Accusations of selfishness could just as easily be levelled at the mum and for that reason they are really quite pointless.

" Her husband's work want to send him to the US f2 presumablyt here is a choice here - nad if he doesnt go it doesnt mean he loses his job.

someone talked about being a aprt from a parent as a teenager.

i think that age is crucial- there i s abig difference between a nine year old and a semi-independent teen.

maybe op -could be saying - not now. wait til he older.

would ex's new partner really lose his uk job if he doesnt go? i doubt it.

also - if is essential for the guy's work/career -well ex's new parter could go to US and ex and Dc could commute there for holidays to be with him. and ex's partner could go back and forth . it doesnt have to be op who travels all the time.

i dont think amount of days actually shared is relevant here - maybe op has weekends and one night mid week (if that is case ) because it is less disruptive to child's routine. clealry dad is very involved.

Gooseberrybushes I think you make a very good point.

See my earlier post.

You were right piglet - I'm sorry I referred to you earlier as "someone up the thread" when I was agreeing with you - sorry!

I have been there.

Without your permission, OP, they will have to go to a UK court to get permission for "removal from jurisdiction". it is taken very seriously by the judge. There are no guaranteed outcomes either way. It is NOT a question of YOU having to take anyone to court. If they leave for the US without permission they will contravene the Hague Convention and be guilty of child abduction.

If the UK courts give them permission to go to the US, once there the UK courts will not resolve any problems for you. If things don't work out, you will most likely have to take legal action in America. It can be very expensive.

I know because I have been to court in America.

My advice is: its about your son and what is best for him and what he wants. Do that and things will work out.

family law teacher (not practitioner) here...from recent case law, i think the OP would stand a very good chance of blocking a permanent relocation. The courts increasingly take separation from the non-resident parent very seriously- even to much nearer countries to UK such as France. Where his case might fall down is that it (supposedly?) isnt' a permanent relocation- and they will also consult the 9 year old (or at least they should do so, although how much weight they give to his opinion is often down to the individual case/judge). So if he is raring to go off to his adventure, that might be a point in the mum's family's favour.

I do agree, however, with posters above who warn the OP about the horrors of legal battles. I think until you're in one it is impossible to realise how vilely destructive they are- most of all to your child, whose carers will hate eachother (that will also happen if you block the move with legal threats, and the mother and step dad deem it unreasonable to do so...). He will know this. He may hate you for it.

I think you really need to canvass gently how your son feels about it and other information about the length of the contract etc- if it's open ended or 'renewable' then that really wouldn't seem acceptable at all. However I personally would think very carefully before going on a 'fight to the death' with your co-parent over something like this if it is a matter of a year. Yes it will be painful to be separated- for you. But the alternatives might be worse for you AND your son. Also if you really piss off his main carer who is clearly the mum by ensuring her dh becomes unemployed that will affect a whole family, including your son, and ensure she probably blames and hates you forever. It's up to you whether you think the adversarial approach is worth it here. Talk to them all first at least before you start consulting solicitors, too. They love a fight more than anything. And it will cost both financially and emotionally.

allegrageller is so right. I have been involved in a long, bitter court case and it is painful, destructive and you will never recover your relationship with your son's mother - ever. This will colour your son's view of you, rightly or wrongly.

I have seen someone become obsessed with court proceedings as a way of punishing my family again and again as the fear of further proceedings and the stresses these bring is a form of emotional blackmail.

I take no strong view one way or the other on your case other than I understand your sadness. My advice is to talk with the mother of your son and do try to come to some understanding together.

As well as you losing him for two years, this could colour his view of you forever so it is important the right thing is done for him.

I'm surprised and a little disgusted by all the stupid brinksmanship on this thread.

Talk of "fighting to the death" shows a complete disregard for what is best for this boy, because a fight like that certainly isn't.

"This isn't about the father's wants though. It's about the child's right to maintain a relationship with both his parents"

This isn't about the child's right to maintain a relationship with both parents. It's about whether and how that relationship can be maintained should the child relocate temporarily.

It's not all or nothing here. They're not going to "kidnap" him (as one hysterical post claimed earlier). They're just going to live somewhere else for a while.

Instead of getting in a lather about 9 year old boys never seeing their father, surely the right approach is to do as Swedes has suggested, look at the possible outcomes, the downsides and how they can be mitigated.

This is real life. Maybe in an ideal world this wouldn't have happened. But in this world moving for jobs is pretty common. And it has happened, and it has to be deal with. Ideally without "fighting to the death"

"The situation is that there's a 9yo boy who has regularly been spending considerable amounts of time with his father for his entire life. There is undoubtedly a relationship there. If this boy's mother decides to move to the US then that regular contact would cease. That boy could go months between seeing his dad in the flesh."

Yes, but he could spend months living with his Dad during the US school holidays. Imagine how awesome that would be?

Of course there is a relationship there. The relationship between a boy and his Dad. I'm not sure why you seem to think that is so brittle that a few months of not seeing him in the flesh would destroy it.

"After all, his mum and step-dad are going to want to have some holiday time with him as well. It's unlikely he'd be coming back to the UK to see his dad every holiday."

But that's the stuff that needs to be discussed. If they take him so far away, then they absolutely should agree to him spending all his summer break with his Dad. That's how you compromise on stuff like this - by trying to figure out where the areas of useful give and take are. They need to move for a few years and they want him to go with them. But he doesn't need to be there 100% of the time, and when school is out he could (and should IMO) be with his Dad.

"Moreover, unless you happen to live near a major east coast city in the US then flights between the US and the UK can be quite expensive, particularly when you factor in that he's not old enough to travel on his own. Have you seen how much it costs to fly transatlantic near Christmas, for example?"

And this cost being borne by the people taking him away from the UK should be part of the agreement of him going. If the job isn't going to pay enough for this to be possible then they'll need to think again about whether it is worth taking.

And the final thing I would want 100% nailed down would be that after 2 years he would be home.

Perhaps the deal should be that he starts secondary school in the UK, and that even if the rest of the family don't come back at that point, that he does.

What kind of legal agreement could be put in place to this effect?

That's what I'd be finding out now.

I hope you're a teacher OP.

I don't know any other job that would give you the whole summer off to spend with your son.

spidookly - there are a number of complications with what you suggest. This young man may not want to spend his entire summer holidays in another country - he may want to spend time with his school friends or relaxing at his "normal" home. It should be about what he wants, not what his parents want to arrange.

When you say a "legal agreement could be put in place" do you mean a British or American one? How would that be enforced? In my experience that will work right up to the point at which there is a disagreement.

I am not saying they should not go, by the way, sometimes it is the best solution.

Has the OP's exwife actually agreed that the child can come back to the UK for the whole summer - 2-3 months? Would be very interested to see if she'd be prepared to do that and forgo seeing her child for so many weeks so he can see his dad.

In the OP it says there will be school holiday visits- but who for an for how long? Will the OP be expected to travel each time? Will the child be coming home to dad for just a week or two each time? Will the child travel alone or with mum? Will mum and siblings accompany the child - if so, where will they all stay?

and if son comes to spend all summer with dad, and dad is working then what will child be doing all day? when he no longer has school friends in uk?
realistically - as son now has his american friends he wants to spend time with in his holidays?

is this really a once in lifetime job offer? can it wait til son is that bit older eg 13 or 14 and able to travel back and forth more easily on his own?

so it isnt a not never - but a not now?

spidookly - it is not so black and white as whether my relationship with him would survive or be destroyed - I've never claimed it would be destroyed if he were to go. It would however undoubtedly be changed, in an extremely detrimental way - as many have said, occasional extended holiday visits are absolutely no substitute for regular contact. It is the difference between being a peripheral figure, and being an active part of his growth and development as a person. The report that someone posted about the effect on relationships of a child being moved to a different country was very concerning.

There is, to my knowledge, no way at all to have any kind of legally enforceable guarantee of their return.

allegrageller and ElsieMc - I absolutely would want to avoid things going to court if possible, it's not something I would ever actively seek out or jump into prematurely. I actually believe in this case that it would be them that would have to make the decision to go to court over it, though I appreciate that's a bit of a semantic fudge as it could be argued that it would be because I'd forced them to by not giving permission.

Didyouever - no, sadly not a teacher, the idyll of spending every moment of every school holiday is not very practical, even without considering the financial side and the stress of travelling, though doubtless there will be those who would call hypocrisy on that and claim I should change my job to accommodate.

Someone mentioned there were three options. There is a fourth. The family stay here except for the stepfather and he's the one who does the bulk of the travelling to visit people. It wouldn't be the first family to work like this.

oh managed to miss some pages (of bickering)

Snurt - Who normally looks after your son during the 7 weeks summer holiday, the near 3 week Christmas holiday, the fortnight easter holiday, etc?

Go and see a lawyer by all means but I'd be very wary if I were you of setting off on a path of registering your discontent by way of an inflammatory solicitor's letter.

Could you and your ex-wife and her current husband go out for a pizza/curry or something so you can ask them how they see it working/can they give you reassurances it won't go on beyond a year -- they might commit to returning without the new husband if the job runs over? They might be not at all certain they want to go and your reasoble reservations might swing it for them.

If you take an adversarial route, and they win, they might decide to stay out there for longer than they originall might have done.

Snurt, sadly this is the way it goes sometimes on mumsnet. If you'd have posed this question as a mum whose son lived with his dad and his dad's new wife had got a job offer in the US, the dad would've been called a selfish, abusive, controlling, misogynist, narcissistic wanker from here till breakfast time if he even considered moving abroad. You would never have been called selfish and had your motives questioned in the way you have here.

There are lots of great things about mumsnet but the double standards often shown about the roles and importance of fathers versus mothers in situations like this is one of the less good bits.

Incidentally, if you haven't already, you might want to have a chat with Families Need Fathers. They're a good bunch.

I know Snorbs, I was expecting it, it's still useful to see what the other perspectives are.

Swedes2, you clearly get good holidays - around here Christmas is two weeks same as Easter, and summer is 6 weeks. Generally holiday time is shared, not on a regular schedule - his mother has him more as she doesn't work. The majority of my allocated holiday days from work is spent with him. I'm not sure how it's relevant though.

They could give me all the reassurances in the world, but sadly I'm not in a position where I could trust them, and nothing would be legally binding.

If the child's mother says "one year, not more than two" I think you can take that to mean "minimum two, and possibly more."
She's just working you in gently.
And my friend started off hearing that argument from her DH. "Let's go for a year, maybe 2" They're now 8 years in, have green cards, about to get citizenship and their kids are totally Americanised and it's all she can do to get them back to the UK for flying visits. Once they hit the teenage years, schooling-wise, it's very difficult to come back. ANd they've lost touch with their mates. Not to mention the cut in the standard of living on return.
I think the OP is in an impossible situation.

snurt - you have my sympathy and i don't think your being selfish. I agree with snorbs the double standards on here is awful. I wouldn't do this to my daughters full stop.

Snorbs/Snurt you are right about the double standards, but Snurt has also got a lot of support from women on this thread. So don't tar us all with the same brush!

I for one would bet good money that your DS's stepdad doesn't HAVE to go to America for work. All we know is that his work want him to go. I suspect that he WANTS to go but could negotiate not to.