Tell me why we shouldn't have a fourth child?

[catgotyourtongue]

I am 27 and DH is 29. We've been together for 12 years and we are very stable. I don't see our relationship faltering at all with another child.

Our children are DS8, DD7 and DS2.
We live in a 3 bed house - two double (11x9) and one single (6x9). DD has the single and the boys have one double and we are in the other.

If we had another, we would be happy to move into the single as we only need a bed and the TV in our room. DH has his computer downstairs and our TV could easily go on the wall. We have a very large airing cupboard where we could store our clothes etc.
Our downstairs is big enough that we won't be cramped together (large lounge, with an extension) and a separate dining room. But it is all open plan and the dining room is in the middle so we can't change that into a bedroom.

I don't drive (epilepsy, I would be allowed to drive but I'm not willing to take that risk) but DH has a 7 seater with a big boot. Not that we really go out anyway!
Our support network is amazing (my family live on the same road).
Money is not an issue, we are not rich at all but we're not struggling. A couple of years ago we were living payday to payday but we're not anymore (only by £50 or so but still!)

I have the implant but it is due out next July. I've currently had a period for the last 2 weeks and I don't know if that's related to the implant (no periods at all and it's been in 2 years now).

I can't shake the feeling of not being "done"
I thought I was finished after DS but I can't stop thinking about it. DH makes odd comments about how he'd like another and then changes his mind. But when we got together, he only wanted 1!

Our three are all healthy and the pregnancy/birth was easy.

I'm not sure if I'm forgetting anything!

There's definitely a demographic on here who only measure success and happiness by education, career and money. They cant imagine there are people who don't prioritise music lessons, tutoring and advanced mandarin lessons. It's very London centric where the main aim for your children is a university education and a job in a one of the big four. There's huge swathes of the population who don't live like this or aspire to it.

I agree that there is a subcategory of people on Mn who think this, but I fail to see how it's relevant to the OP's desire to have another child when (a) her resources are pretty stretched with three, and no room for financial for emergencies/contingencies and (b) it's very clear that having another child and hence making it temporarily impossible all over again for herself to become economically independent and get back in the workplace is her primary motivation.

@Nandakanda

If you want a 4th child have one and ignore this miserable shower of bastards..

Yeah, don’t be so ridiculous as to consider the well-being of and best outcome for your existing three children who, you know, already exist! Screw what’s best for them and their futures and just keep making babies!!

FFS.

If you feel your health is ruling you out of certain jobs (retail and office work) have you taken any steps to see if you can overcome this? For example a GP appointment regarding the headaches, mental health support regarding the panic attacks? Even if there is no 'cure' as such if you have a health condition you can ask for reasonable adjustments in the work place, eg regular breaks, being able to wear sunglasses etc. It seems a shame to rule out so many options for a career without fully exploring if the issues can be overcome.

OP, if you are taking valproate then you've been very lucky to have three children who are unaffected. If you are planning another you should talk things through with your neurologist.

For me the concern would be OPs financial security both in later life and if the worst case scenario happens and she’s left to parent alone. She has at least 40 years before she reaches state pension age. That means 40 years to support yourself and also build up enough of a pension so that she isn’t solely reliant on whatever the state has to offer at that point in time (tbh- I’m preparing as though there will be no state pension as I think that’s a distinct possibility) it may seem like a million years away but consider the people in your life who are retirement age now. Look at their circumstances, their living conditions and quality of life and decide whether you’d be happy to live as they live or whether you’d want to be a bit more comfortable. My mum and her sister are a good example: one worked full time from 18 and was able to retire early at 60, lives very comfortably and holidays twice a year abroad, lunches out with friends etc The other had a long break to raise children, then worked part time and has had to work beyond retirement age as their state pension and private pension just aren’t enough to live on. At almost 70, with various health conditions that come with age, it’s pretty tough going.

OP

Personally, I wouldn't take the risk of birth defects with the drugs you are on when you have three healthy children and are in such a precarious position financially. If you had a child with severe additional needs (whether or not related to epilepsy) and support was inadequate, you haven't got much additional buffer, so you would have to choose between your children's real needs, not just nice to have or wants.

Re jobs, I am sorry that you have had such a tough time health wise. Do have a think about what you "can" do because you seem to be a bright capable and resilient person and it may be very helpful for your confidence to find something you can do outside the house.

I only have two who are 13 and 15 but my thoughts are that kids get more expensive the older they get. Even down to things like haircuts and clothes/shoes once you get out of kids sizes. Especially boys shoes - I am still shocked every time I buy ds a pair of shoes/trainers/football boots and he doesn't have expensive taste! Plus things like phones and then Birthdays and Christmas. We spend much more on them now then when they were young, but the pile of presents has reduced dramatically. We've had to buy an extra laptop during lockdown as sharing wasn't working with home schooling. Also things like days out and meals - we are now pretty much paying for 4 adults prices for everything.

Statistically (as a teenage mum) OPs children are unlikely to go to university, and unlikely to do music, drama, swimming etc as out of school activities. There is no reason that this has to be the case, but with £50 left over each month it’s convenient that they don’t like activities because in reality there isn’t really money to pay for them anyway. OPs daughter has a baby machine as a role model, and will probably have her own children at 18, as this is all she knows and sees.

Bloody hell, @Headshoulderskneesandtoes22, did you forget there’s an actual human behind the screen? There’s disagreeing with someone’s choices and there’s being snotty and mean for the sake of it.

@Headshoulderskneesandtoes22

"You have no qualifications, no pension, no job."
I do have 5 GCSE which include Maths and English. I did 3x business Open University courses which has given me credits to carry it on, but that's not what I want to do.
No job - fair enough. I do sell my crafts on etsy which brings in £100ish a month (it was £500 in December). It isn't a steady income though.

"You live in a house that is rented from a friend of a friend (what happens if you have notice served....and how are you proposing to divide up rooms in a rented house?)."
It isn't a friend of a friend. This person may as well be my uncle. Our house was his childhood home, his mother lived here from when it was built until we moved in 8 years ago. She now lives in one of his other houses opposite me.
When we moved in, there were 2 bedrooms. When the house was built, there were 3. We paid to have the wall put back up, which meant all the materials, new flooring etc.
There is enough space in the front bedroom to split that into 2 rooms one could fit a 4ft bed (built in wardrobe), the other a single and a wardrobe. I know this as my mum did the same in her house up the road.
He isn't bothered by what we do. He doesn't inspect the house, and I ask before we do anything major.

"No relationship is rock solid. If your husband leaves you are utterly screwed....with 3 kids, nevermind 4."
That is fair to say. But my husband is now NC with his dad. He didn't have a good childhood and he knows how it feels to be chucked aside. There is no way he would want that for his own children. I understand that no relationship is rock solid, but i also know that our relationship is very strong.
We joked about it once that if we split up, i would have to start claiming UC so we looked at what i would be entitled to. Turns out I would be better off if we weren't together! Which would actually be enough to stay in this house.

"Statistically (as a teenage mum) OPs children are unlikely to go to university, and unlikely to do music, drama, swimming etc as out of school activities."
I never wanted to go university. My older sister did go to university. If my children decide to go to university, that's their choice.
As it stands, DD wants to learn how to play her keyboard but doesn't want lessons so she has a membership to a piano thing on the ipad. Yesterday we played Baby Shark together.
DS8 and I were supposed to start swimming together, but then covid happened.

"With £50 left over each month it’s convenient that they don’t like activities because in reality there isn’t really money to pay for them anyway."
If you rtft you would see that after bills, we have £300-350 left over. The £50 was a rough estimate in what is left by the time DH next gets paid. So there will still be about £50 from June payday by July payday. I didn't explain it very well in my original post.

"OPs daughter has a baby machine as a role model, and will probably have her own children at 18, as this is all she knows and sees."
That's a bit unfair really. I'm hardly a baby machine, 3 children in 7 years. If she ends up having her children young, then that's her choice.

"In my world £50 left over each month is living hand to mouth."
In my world, it isn't. We have luxuries that we don't NEED. We don't smoke or drink. We don't get a takeaway every week. If we needed more money, we could cut back. But that £50, that would cover a basic weeks shop for us.

"What do you do OP when the car needs fixing or the washing machine breaks?"
We had to buy a new car last year (failed MOT) we scrapped the old one and borrowed £600 from my nanny to put towards what we had saved as we knew the car would need work. We paid that back in 3 months and still didn't end up living hand to mouth. (We also had Christmas and DS8 birthday during them months). 90% of the time, the car is used for DH to get to work. He works with a friend who drives past our house so he can hitch a ride with him and give him petrol money if the car suddenly breaks down.
Washing machine broke when DS2 was 5 weeks old. We got one on finance which was paid off quickly. But even that wouldn't be an essential because my mum could do my washing for me. They are cheap enough to buy secondhand anyway!

That is soooo much longer than I planned it to be but I was stuck under a sleeping child so had plenty of time to type it out.

ANYWAY now I'm done defending/explaining myself in response to that comment.. a lot of people have been very helpful (thank you for that) and I am definitely reconsidering the practicalities of a fourth.

I appreciate the people who responded with their opinions in a nice way and those who offered advice.

I'm going to sit down with a notebook (I love to do that anyway) and make a plan.. Next year, five year and ten year. We have a few debts which could be paid off quickly if I put my mind to it.

I guess essentially, reevaluate where I am in a few years. Get a few things in place now (private pension etc). We already have a Help To Buy ISA each, so make an effort to put money into that.

I need to use my head, not my heart.

By a few debts, i mean under £200 each before that comment gets jumped upon!

I think it might be a great plan to see how your DCs interests could be expanded. Mine had swimming lessons at 3 years old. So all could go for lessons pretty soon (when it opens up). Nothing wrong with music lessons. Teachers are always better than a child trying to self teach - virtually impossible and very hard work. Give the child a chance.

I also think it’s great to take them out and about and show them things. Look at what they might enjoy (castles, zoos, beaches, heritage railways, short trips to places of beauty, exhibitions for children, anything child centred that reopens, etc) and do more weekend trips. Get enthusiastic about days out.

I have found that people with little money do limit what their dc can do. Then it’s inevitable dc say they don’t want to do anything. They are children. They don’t know what’s out there to enjoy. It’s inevitable they don’t want much.

It’s also odd, in my view, to say parents who want their dc to learn different skills are mostly in the London area. If this is true, it’s an appalling indictment of parenting outside London! I don’t believe it’s true for a moment except where there’s poverty. There’s poverty in London too but there’s also a great desire to improve in many communities. There’s nothing wrong with wanting better for dc. It’s to be applauded.

So do you not have any savings apart from the Help to Buy ISA.

I couldn't imagine planning to have a 4th child with no safety net of some savings, especially when only one of you works.

OP this may be helpful (ignore if not applicable) the government have a help to save scheme for people who receive working tax credits or universal credit. You can save up to £50 per month for 4 years and they pay a 50% bonus on whatever you save. So if by the end of 4 years you have saved the full £2400 they will add £1200 to it. Might help with your house deposit savings. Also the money is accessible if you need it in an emergency.

@youhave4substitutes

You only have £50 spare each month and would have to share a single bed with your DH?

That's enough for me tbh

I agree and thought the same. Look at the economy we are in? Your childrens future and the fact they may need finicial support. Maybe you could start a saving fund for holiday and all go away next year embrace the 3 children you currently have. Your youngest child is only 2. I wouldn’t rock the boat in your position.

@Smallsteps88

OP this may be helpful (ignore if not applicable) the government have a help to save scheme for people who receive working tax credits or universal credit. You can save up to £50 per month for 4 years and they pay a 50% bonus on whatever you save. So if by the end of 4 years you have saved the full £2400 they will add £1200 to it. Might help with your house deposit savings. Also the money is accessible if you need it in an emergency.

Where can I find more info about this scheme please?

Try this @Heyhih3

www.gov.uk/get-help-savings-low-income/eligibility

@Smallsteps88 thanks so much for the info.

No problem, hope it’s useful.

We’ve recently decided to stop at 2 OP and it is such a hard decision, I understand where you are coming from. It’s a lot to think about. Some people are so sure they’re 100% done, but I’d be happy to have more which makes it so hard. I’d advise you to get excited about putting everything you have into the 3 kids you do have. They will have more space, attention, money, time each if you stop at 3. They already have 2 siblings each. Also the environmental impact was a big consideration for us (although I could happily ignore that for the most part and have a third, I really want one 😆). There are so many pros to stopping now although I feel the same as you sometimes - I know how to look after my kids and I’m not sure how to do much else!

@My0My That's what I thought reading that. Nothing to do with wanting them to work for KPMG, but isn't wanting your children to expand their horizons and have opportunities a pretty crucial part of parenting? (If you take it seriously, that is.)

OP you sound like someone who simply lacks confidence but I bet you have bags of potential. You’re so young that you will have your child rearing days largely behind you by 40 - that’s one of the huge advantages of having your family young. You’ve had some sound advice on this thread and I hope it’s helpful to you. You clearly have an amazing support network but it really would be sensible to do some financial planning so that emergencies don’t involve borrowing, and so that you have a pension building up. Don’t have another baby because it’s all you know how to do. Take confidence from all the skills you have developed while focusing on your family and be brave enough to shift focus onto what’s ahead, which includes making sure you can meet your existing children’s needs as they grow-material and otherwise.

I'm one of 4 so I have no problems with bigger families. However, with your financial situation, and living situation it just doesn't seem feasible for you to have a fourth right now.
Of course if you want another, it's your choice but I really would consider how a fourth would affect you financially and also emotionally in terms of your other 3 children.

OP, your update about the washing machine and car has made the choice even easier if I were you (and essentially I am, SAHM, epilepsy, 3 small children).

I grew up in an affluent home. My father died. Immediately our lives changed. We couldn’t afford a new car if one broke with out help from my grandparents. We didn’t have new washing machines, tv was rented, no holidays, smaller things like no fruit in the house as it was expensive and unnecessary, saving for things like school shoes, everything was off the catalogue, eventually as we became teenagers it got worse and we’d often have to go without baths as no hot water, no electric some nights, scraps for dinner because we had nothing else, clothes from charity shops - and it has changed me. Even now if our washing machine broke, we could buy a new one today. If our car broke, we could probably buy one today also. If the roof fell in, we have enough savings to sort it.

I wouldn’t choose to potentially put myself closer to the situation I grew up in, just for another baby. I’d stick with 3 kids and have a better life. Because kids remember that shit.

We're ttc #4. My children are very excited about it. It's a decision only you as a family can make. As long as you have enough space, time and money, enough contingency plans and money in case something goes wrong, and the whole family is OK with it.