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Jewish Mumsnetters

Only those who have been a registered user of Mumsnet for at least 7 days can post in this topic. This board exists primarily for the use of Jewish Mumsnetters. Others are welcome to post but please be respectful.

Chat thread 5 🐥🍲(Mumsnets could do better cont…)

202 replies

EllaDisenchanted · 08/10/2025 23:02

@stomachamelon @humdingerydoo @diamond82 @missconductUS @quantumbutterfly @comedycook @25milesfromhome @olderglaswegianlivingindevon @beretinparis @edithstourton @sharonellis @towerofsong @purplechrayne

I’ve tagged a few people to start off the next thread. Please tag anyone else I’ve missed.
I felt bad calling it Mumsnet could do better 😬

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Thread gallery
29
MissConductUS · 28/01/2026 16:56

Good points all, thank you @gingergran. American politics seems simple compared to Israeli politics.

It is good that some Orthodox men serve voluntarily, but the point of compulsory service is that those who benefit from the security of the state have a moral obligation to defend it.

Every time I think about these Israeli soldiers, I am in awe of their courage and skill. These women have the hearts of lions and a warrior spirit. Do not underestimate what they did - they were engaged in combat with the enemy for 17 hours before they were relieved. I salute them.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_female_tank_crew_fight

2023 Israeli female tank crew fight - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2023_Israeli_female_tank_crew_fight

gingergran · 28/01/2026 18:53

@MissConductUS i agree with you 100% regarding compulsory service however this is also complicated. There are ultra-orthodox men who enlist and who are cut off by their families. There are also others who volunteer for the volunteer ambulance service and who carry out horrendous but holy work following terror attacks to ensure that bodies are buried as complete as possible

EdithStourton · 28/01/2026 21:10

I think I'm correct in saying that the vast majority of Modern Orthodox do military service.

gingergran · 28/01/2026 21:21

@EdithStourton That is correct. The debate around conscription and exemption relates to the ultra-orthodox

MissConductUS · 28/01/2026 22:37

@gingergran, I wasn't aware that ultra-orthodox men who enlisted faced that kind of treatment from their families. Is it seen as some sort of sin or religious violation, and would the stigma be reduced if it were compulsory?

There is a parallel in US law. Those with deeply held religious objections to any type of conflict can be classified as conscientious objectors and either serve in a non-combat role or do an alternate civilian service. It is very difficult to get CO status. You need lots of documentation. Quakers are one of the few groups that regularly qualify.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/conscientious_objector

We've had an all volunteer force since the Vietnam war, so it's not widely known among younger people.

conscientious objector

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/conscientious_objector

EllaDisenchanted · 29/01/2026 18:27

MissConductUS · 28/01/2026 22:37

@gingergran, I wasn't aware that ultra-orthodox men who enlisted faced that kind of treatment from their families. Is it seen as some sort of sin or religious violation, and would the stigma be reduced if it were compulsory?

There is a parallel in US law. Those with deeply held religious objections to any type of conflict can be classified as conscientious objectors and either serve in a non-combat role or do an alternate civilian service. It is very difficult to get CO status. You need lots of documentation. Quakers are one of the few groups that regularly qualify.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/wex/conscientious_objector

We've had an all volunteer force since the Vietnam war, so it's not widely known among younger people.

I'll be honest I haven't a clue when it comes to politics.

As I understand it, regarding conscription for ultra-orthodox, it's not that fighting itself is considered a sin (which would be closer to what a conscientious objector might believe), it's more complex and multi-layered than that. Ultra-orthodox Jews strongly regard the studying of the Torah as just as essential for the security of the country as fighting. (So do religious Zionists, who often combine IDF service with Yeshiva study, in the Hesder program). This has biblical roots as well, where some historical commentators note that when the Israelites went out to battle (don't ask me the source sorry!), the army was split into three parts; 1 part combat, 1 part Torah learners, and the third something else (support?). The idea of Torah learning being essential for defence means many Charedim believe that drafting those who are engaged in Torah learning actually removes a layer of defence from the country, and leaves us far more vulnerable, and that those engaged in Torah learning are fighting on the spiritual front for our protection.
(Some religious zionists counter argue that this was a milchemet mitzva (a war that is a mitzva, a commandment) and therefore everybody is obligated to fight. But there's debate around whether it can constitute a milchemet mitzva or not. )

Another layer is that the ultra-orthodox community is very separate, and deliberately pursues a very closed and sheltered way of life. The IDF as an environment exposes these very sheltered young men (and women) to ways of life that is seen as antithetical to these communities way of life, and they are worried that this will cause their children to leave their way of life and communities. The fact that the army is mixed gender, for example, is highly problematic. Concerns around facilitation of religious observance and kashrus are also part of the issue. The establishment of Charedi Chashmonaim brigade was an attempt to resolve this issue, and work on Charedi army integration. However, some regard forced conscription as an attempt at forced assimilation and secular integration - an attack on their way of life, which also taps into historical tensions as well, between Charedi communities and the state.

Some Charedi communities in Israel pre-date the state (e.g. the Old Yishuv), and were opposed to the rise of political zionism. A small number of ultra-orthodox sects are opposed to the state of Israel altogether, and believe we should be waiting for Mashiach, before re-establishing a Jewish state in the land. Neturei karta (who are frequently quoted by antisemites) are one such group who believe this - they were a breakaway group who originated in the old Yishuv. However, NK are pretty much condemned across the board nowadays.

In short, it is political, historical, cultural, and religious.

(Disclaimer: This is just my understanding of the issues)

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gingergran · 29/01/2026 18:35

@EllaDisenchanted pretty clear summary of a very complicated issue!

SharonEllis · 29/01/2026 19:02

EllaDisenchanted · 29/01/2026 18:27

I'll be honest I haven't a clue when it comes to politics.

As I understand it, regarding conscription for ultra-orthodox, it's not that fighting itself is considered a sin (which would be closer to what a conscientious objector might believe), it's more complex and multi-layered than that. Ultra-orthodox Jews strongly regard the studying of the Torah as just as essential for the security of the country as fighting. (So do religious Zionists, who often combine IDF service with Yeshiva study, in the Hesder program). This has biblical roots as well, where some historical commentators note that when the Israelites went out to battle (don't ask me the source sorry!), the army was split into three parts; 1 part combat, 1 part Torah learners, and the third something else (support?). The idea of Torah learning being essential for defence means many Charedim believe that drafting those who are engaged in Torah learning actually removes a layer of defence from the country, and leaves us far more vulnerable, and that those engaged in Torah learning are fighting on the spiritual front for our protection.
(Some religious zionists counter argue that this was a milchemet mitzva (a war that is a mitzva, a commandment) and therefore everybody is obligated to fight. But there's debate around whether it can constitute a milchemet mitzva or not. )

Another layer is that the ultra-orthodox community is very separate, and deliberately pursues a very closed and sheltered way of life. The IDF as an environment exposes these very sheltered young men (and women) to ways of life that is seen as antithetical to these communities way of life, and they are worried that this will cause their children to leave their way of life and communities. The fact that the army is mixed gender, for example, is highly problematic. Concerns around facilitation of religious observance and kashrus are also part of the issue. The establishment of Charedi Chashmonaim brigade was an attempt to resolve this issue, and work on Charedi army integration. However, some regard forced conscription as an attempt at forced assimilation and secular integration - an attack on their way of life, which also taps into historical tensions as well, between Charedi communities and the state.

Some Charedi communities in Israel pre-date the state (e.g. the Old Yishuv), and were opposed to the rise of political zionism. A small number of ultra-orthodox sects are opposed to the state of Israel altogether, and believe we should be waiting for Mashiach, before re-establishing a Jewish state in the land. Neturei karta (who are frequently quoted by antisemites) are one such group who believe this - they were a breakaway group who originated in the old Yishuv. However, NK are pretty much condemned across the board nowadays.

In short, it is political, historical, cultural, and religious.

(Disclaimer: This is just my understanding of the issues)

Very helpful explanation! And yes the antisemites over here do love Neturei Karta.

EllaDisenchanted · 01/02/2026 15:44

Tu b’Shvat sameach!

Chat thread 5 🐥🍲(Mumsnets could do better cont…)
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SpuytenDuyvil · 01/02/2026 17:39

Beautiful, Ella. Where we live in Northern California our trees are already waking up and some of the fruit trees are budding.

EllaDisenchanted · 01/02/2026 18:07

SpuytenDuyvil · 01/02/2026 17:39

Beautiful, Ella. Where we live in Northern California our trees are already waking up and some of the fruit trees are budding.

Thank you! Good thing I saved some for my eldest who is still out, as it was demolished pretty fast.

the kids are growing avocado pips, one has a root now. No idea if that is a seasonal thing or not, I’m not green fingered at all

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EllaDisenchanted · 01/02/2026 18:08

Is it warm already in California @SpuytenDuyvil ? Here it was a lovely 25^c today, didn’t even need a jacket, but I don’t think that’s typical for Feb.

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SpuytenDuyvil · 01/02/2026 18:14

@EllaDisenchanted It will be in the 60s today, so 18C? We are an hour east of San Francisco and have a long and hot growing season here in the Central Valley. We are hoping for more rain still but this is the beginning of spring here.

Humdingerydoo · 02/02/2026 20:04

Saw this and got really unreasonably angry 😂
No one is illegal on stolen land. Unless it's Jews creating a state in their ancestral homeland, obviously, in which case it's a BIG no no.

Chat thread 5 🐥🍲(Mumsnets could do better cont…)
Cparrot · 02/02/2026 21:16

Is she sharing her wealth? Didn’t think so.
What has she done to her eyes? Is it makeup?
But not a word about Iran, not trendy eh. She’s a hypocrite

EllaDisenchanted · 02/02/2026 21:36

Cparrot · 02/02/2026 21:16

Is she sharing her wealth? Didn’t think so.
What has she done to her eyes? Is it makeup?
But not a word about Iran, not trendy eh. She’s a hypocrite

None of them spoke about Iran. It’s appalling 😠 the hypocrisy of all of them is off the charts

@Humdingerydoo see this sort of pathetic comment doesn’t make me angry because at this point it’s just par for the course and it’s just such an idiotic statement.

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MissConductUS · 04/02/2026 11:16

May Gd bless and protect Captain Waweya.

MissConductUS · 04/02/2026 18:25

My apologies, I've just reread the post on X.

May Gd bless and protect Major Waweya.

EdithStourton · 14/02/2026 18:08

Shocked, I tell you.

YesHesAPlonker · 25/02/2026 16:49

Surely not 😱 who would have thought it ….

BeretInParis · 27/02/2026 19:11

A very UK-centric question here but what does everyone think of the Green party's victory in the Gorton and Denton by-election? I think it's an antisemitic vote associated with that mislabelled 'genocide' in Gaza from an already left-leaning local population.

I dread to think what life would be like here should the Greens obtain more power. As Jews we'd be screwed. Essentially, if you do/are any/all of the following, you're fucked: earn money, want national security, care what a woman is, aren't interested in legalising drugs, not a student. A little hyperbolic possibly, but I'm just so scared and fed up.

Comedycook · 27/02/2026 20:43

BeretInParis · 27/02/2026 19:11

A very UK-centric question here but what does everyone think of the Green party's victory in the Gorton and Denton by-election? I think it's an antisemitic vote associated with that mislabelled 'genocide' in Gaza from an already left-leaning local population.

I dread to think what life would be like here should the Greens obtain more power. As Jews we'd be screwed. Essentially, if you do/are any/all of the following, you're fucked: earn money, want national security, care what a woman is, aren't interested in legalising drugs, not a student. A little hyperbolic possibly, but I'm just so scared and fed up.

I agree entirely.

SharonEllis · 28/02/2026 10:42

I agree. Its really depressing. I think the only possible silver lining is that the greens are playing with fire, as Labour did before them. The progressive/Islamist alliance will collapse under the weight of its own contradictions (& I don't think legalising drugs or leaving Nato will play outside certain constituencies) but it's doing a lot of damage and will continue to do so both as a result of the normalising antisemitism, and contributing to it. I wonder what will happen if 'Your Party' gets its act together. They will chase a very similar alliance of voters.