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Mumsnet could do better (part trois)

1000 replies

EllaDisenchanted · 20/05/2024 07:20

Hello all, decompression thread 3️⃣

OP posts:
Thread gallery
95
Diamond82 · 28/05/2024 21:50

Many of my non Jewish friends have posted the instastory of all eyes on rafah today. I don’t know if I should say anything? Please help.

EllaDisenchanted · 29/05/2024 05:34

Do you want to say anything diamond?

OP posts:
EllaDisenchanted · 29/05/2024 12:08

I need to come off here for a bit. I just read on one of the threads a blatant mistranslation of Netanyahu's speech, where it was claimed that he called for final solution until extermination is complete. I watched it and I speak Ivrit and it is not true, that is not what he said. He said לניצחון המוחלט which means complete victory, that is not the same thing as the final solution. He then later quotes the mother of the hostage Amit Buskila, whose body was rescued recently, from the Shiva, as saying 'evil must be removed the face of the earth, they are the complete evil' - for G-d's sake, she is referring to Hamas, in the week of mourning for her murdered daughter, and saying that Hamas must be wiped from the earth.

I was too stunned to sit and write out the Hebrew of his whole speech and the correct translation. I feel completely ill after reading that, and it's impacting me too much now. I'll no doubt be back at some point, but for now at least, I can't be on here. Sending you all my love ❤

OP posts:
DownNative · 29/05/2024 12:12

Which thread is it in, @EllaDisenchanted?

Sorry to hear its massively upset you to the point you need time away from the forum. Look after yourself for as long as you need to!

DownNative · 29/05/2024 12:41

keenforhelp · 28/05/2024 20:53

I am trying my best in there but no dice.

My impression is that your aim is to change or alter the views of those who are posting which isn't really going to work. I have mentally noted some of the background some posters have publicly stated and that informs what I will do or say in various threads.

Understand what motivates some posters and decide on a strategy. The pushback I experienced the other day turned out to be short-lived as my responses does not encourage their own emotional responses. If you look at some of my posts, you'll kind of glean how I'm doing that.

Below is some research studies with insights that should be helpful to you in understanding what is really going on in the CITME section.

"Online, social media communication is often ambiguous, and it can encourage speed and inattentiveness. We investigated whether Actively Open Minded Thinking (AOT), a dispositional willingness to seek out new or potentially threatening information, may help users avoid these pitfalls. In Study 1, we determined that correctly assessing social media authors’ traits was positively predicted by raters’ AOT. In Study 2, we used data-driven methods to devise a three-dimensional picture of online behaviors of people high or low in AOT, finding that AOT is associated with thoughtful, nuanced, idiosyncratic actions and with resisting the typically fast pace of online interactions. AOT may be an important factor in accurate, socially responsible online behavior."

https://www.cambridge.org/core/journals/judgment-and-decision-making/article/impact-of-actively-openminded-thinking-on-social-media-communication/D2F725AE43A176B1F35A87AAB2225CD4

I deliberately look for information of various kinds from sources with different views to me. For example, I look at PIRAs Green Book, statements of PIRAs leaders and so on. It becomes more difficult to debate someone who does that kind of thing.

The saying "slow is fast and fast is slow" comes to mind!

"Our findings show that users mostly tend to select and share content according to a specific narrative and to ignore the rest. This suggests that the determinant for the formation of echo chambers is confirmation bias."

And:

"Users tend to aggregate in communities of interest, which causes reinforcement and fosters confirmation bias, segregation, and polarization. This comes at the expense of the quality of the information and leads to proliferation of biased narratives fomented by unsubstantiated rumors, mistrust, and paranoia."

And:

"Digital misinformation has become so pervasive in online social media that it has been listed by the WEF as one of the main threats to human society. Whether a news item, either substantiated or not, is accepted as true by a user may be strongly affected by social norms or by how much it coheres with the user’s system of beliefs (32, 33). Many mechanisms cause false information to gain acceptance, which in turn generate false beliefs that, once adopted by an individual, are highly resistant to correction (34–37). In this work, using extensive quantitative analysis and data-driven modeling, we provide important insights toward the understanding of the mechanism behind rumor spreading. Our findings show that users mostly tend to select and share content related to a specific narrative and to ignore the rest. In particular, we show that social homogeneity is the primary driver of content diffusion, and one frequent result is the formation of homogeneous, polarized clusters. Most of the times the information is taken by a friend having the same profile (polarization)––i.e., belonging to the same echo chamber."

So, the conclusion is your goal CANNOT be to change the views of particular posters, especially as you can observe how a little community of like-minded posters has formed in CITME.

Your goal is to present information to those non-posters who lurk! You'll never know who's been impacted, but you can find evidence that online social media generated echo chambers don't really correspond to the silent majority.

See attachment about views of United States citizens.

The above will save you headaches and stress since you're changing your perspective and focus. 👍

Mumsnet could do better (part trois)
PurpleChrayn · 29/05/2024 12:47

@EllaDisenchanted I totally understand your despair and frustration.

Someone on one of the CITME threads said she hoped Israel would never recover from this and be destroyed. Another said Israeli society was rotten. It upset me more than a lot of the hateful stuff on here, because it felt so personal. That's the society my family live in; the society that raised my husband; and where we will be moving to as soon as we can. To see it being misrepresent is viscerally upsetting.

I came off Instagram and Facebook yesterday because I just can't cope with the All Eyes on Rafah propaganda.

0palfruitsalad74 · 29/05/2024 13:05

I'm really sorry to hear that @EllaDisenchanted . I have appreciated your posts over the past few months. That board is worse than ever and I've stopped reading it now. You know when you look at "threads I'm on" and there have been 300 posts since you last looked that it's not going to be much of a nuanced discussion. I take some comfort from the small number of posters with no particular skin in the game who I've seen elsewhere on MN agreeing that the levels of AS on the CITME board are off the chart - people are reading but don't feel able to comment, and who can blame them really. No-one wants a pile-on.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 29/05/2024 13:13

Flowers Ella.

DownNative · 29/05/2024 14:22

Well, well, well....that award winning journalist who has won a UN peace award anongst other things i mentioned earlier?

Decided to personally abuse me on X when he couldn't make a coherent argument for equating 🇬🇧 operations against PIRA with that of 🇮🇱 against Hamas.

And lied that I did the same to him! 🤦‍♂️

X has removed his post now! 🤣

My point is....don't be cowed by whatever reputation someone has and keep focused on the facts.

He picked on the wrong person. 🤷‍♂️

DownNative · 29/05/2024 15:03

An excellent article you guys should read.

"Hamas knows the laws of war, it knows the public sensitivity, and it exploits those to both hamper the IDF's actions and invite international condemnation."

And:

"The fact that the International Committee of the Red Cross, World Health Organization, and United Nations have made public statements condemning Israel for searching hospitals, and never condemn Hamas for using the hospitals in the first place, is telling. During the war, and even more importantly, before the war, these organizations could have focused their efforts on stopping Hamas from exploiting hospitals and putting staff and patients in danger. Doing so would not only avoid the need for the IDF to operate within and near hospitals but would also send a message to all terrorist organizations that the world will not accept them putting in danger the very people who most need protection."

And:

"There is real danger in not condemning those who use hospitals for military purposes. It gives the world the perception that hospitals are completely immune to military action, which sends a message to all terrorists that the use of hospitals is an effective, albeit illegal, military strategy."

John Spencer is chair of urban warfare studies at the Modern War Institute (MWI) at West Point, codirector of MWI's Urban Warfare Project and host of the "Urban Warfare Project Podcast." He served for 25 years as an infantry soldier, which included two combat tours in Iraq.

https://www.newsweek.com/hospitals-are-protected-under-international-law-they-cannot-off-limits-opinion-1871757

Check out his work. 👍

Al Shifa hospital

Hospitals Are Protected by International Law but They Can't be 'Off Limits'

In Gaza, in almost every hospital the IDF has arrived at, it has uncovered and published military use by Hamas.

https://www.newsweek.com/hospitals-are-protected-under-international-law-they-cannot-off-limits-opinion-1871757

DownNative · 29/05/2024 16:05

DownNative · 29/05/2024 14:22

Well, well, well....that award winning journalist who has won a UN peace award anongst other things i mentioned earlier?

Decided to personally abuse me on X when he couldn't make a coherent argument for equating 🇬🇧 operations against PIRA with that of 🇮🇱 against Hamas.

And lied that I did the same to him! 🤦‍♂️

X has removed his post now! 🤣

My point is....don't be cowed by whatever reputation someone has and keep focused on the facts.

He picked on the wrong person. 🤷‍♂️

This is what happens when someone thinks they know enough about various conflicts only to find they really don't.

Block. Retreat into their safe space aka echo chambers.

This is an award winning journalist!

With the research into online behaviour in mind, if a guy like that can behave in this way then so will other online posters including some in the CITME board.

Your goal isn't to change people's mind when they post. Your goal is those who read but don't post!

Mumsnet could do better (part trois)
79Helene · 29/05/2024 17:44

This reply has been deleted

Message deleted by MNHQ. Here's a link to our Talk Guidelines.

0palfruitsalad74 · 29/05/2024 18:09

. Don't leave - just hang out here instead

Yes, this 🤗

DownNative · 29/05/2024 18:10

0palfruitsalad74 · 29/05/2024 18:09

. Don't leave - just hang out here instead

Yes, this 🤗

Me third this! 👍

DownNative · 29/05/2024 18:29
Meme Reaction GIF

A terrorist organisation isn't bound by international law, apparently(!) 🤦‍♂️❗️

I often see that kind of statement from sneaking regarders of terrorism. IHL and other instruments of law apply to terrorist groups.

If that wasn't the case, Sovereign Powers would have their hands tied behind their backs and trousers around their ankles whilst terrorist groups whack them on the arse with paddles!

DownNative · 29/05/2024 19:08

Just responded to someone asserting Israel has Palestinian "hostages" and trying to create a false equivalence.

Under IHL, hostage taking is very clearly defined AND distinguished from a Sovereign Power detaining & depriving prisoners of liberty.

Equating hostages with prisoners is wrong. It's also an example of sneaking regarder behaviour if you all remember myself explaining it from months ago.

Diamond82 · 29/05/2024 19:39

Thank you . I love Hen, he’s great.

I think it was just a shock to see my friends posting about it like this. I can’t believe how many millions shared that All Eyes on Rafah post. What does it even mean.

79Helene · 29/05/2024 20:42

I had a post deleted there just for calling blatant and disgusting antisemitism, which included a personal attack on someone else here. I wasn't aggressive (unlike the poster), and didn't say anything that wasn't very patently true.

MN want you to challenge posts rather than delete them. So you challenge it, and that's not the right thing to do either. This place is fucking nuts, that board needs proscribing.

0palfruitsalad74 · 29/05/2024 21:36

They do get very huffy over there if you accuse them of being antisemitic.

79Helene · 29/05/2024 21:44

There's nothing antisemites hate more than being called an antisemite. Well apart from Jews obviously.

PurpleChrayn · 29/05/2024 22:07

That "All Eyes on Rafah" is the most idiotic dreck I have ever seen.

Where are the snow-capped mountains in Gaza, exactly?

And what ARE those things supposed to be - tents? Aid trucks?

It's an AI disaster and I cannot believe how many witless imbeciles are reposting it.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 29/05/2024 22:12

MN want you to challenge posts rather than delete them. So you challenge it, and that's not the right thing to do either. This place is fucking nuts, that board needs proscribing

Over at FWR we learned that Mumsnet is very much a business and decisions about censoring, deleting and banning are business decisions based on keeping the punters happy and the advertising revenue rolling in. We also learned that popular campaigns have monitors who report posts they don’t like en masse so they are removed. If the wind was blowing a different way the decisions would be different. At the basis of this, of course, is that anti-Semitism (and misogyny) are social and political staples and control where the wind is blowing from.

79Helene · 29/05/2024 22:25

YetAnotherSpartacus · 29/05/2024 22:12

MN want you to challenge posts rather than delete them. So you challenge it, and that's not the right thing to do either. This place is fucking nuts, that board needs proscribing

Over at FWR we learned that Mumsnet is very much a business and decisions about censoring, deleting and banning are business decisions based on keeping the punters happy and the advertising revenue rolling in. We also learned that popular campaigns have monitors who report posts they don’t like en masse so they are removed. If the wind was blowing a different way the decisions would be different. At the basis of this, of course, is that anti-Semitism (and misogyny) are social and political staples and control where the wind is blowing from.

Well yes, their whole business model seems predicated on 'the greater the hatefest, the greater the traffic'.

DownNative · 29/05/2024 22:38

79Helene · 29/05/2024 22:25

Well yes, their whole business model seems predicated on 'the greater the hatefest, the greater the traffic'.

Yep, what is politely called user engagement. And what is more bluntly referred to as clickbait.

It's helpful to view certain threads, posts and members as bait for you to bite on their line so they can hook you on it.

On all social media platforms including this one, YOU are the product and YOUR reactions drives post numbers which also means eyes on ads!

An idea would be to give yourself a set time frame you'll respond to certain things before moving on.

If anyone has any other advice and suggestions, please share them! 👍

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