Gunman on the run in Tyneside

[StealthPolarBear]

here

thanks for answering so clearly Ryoko. I think you are stretching the definition of psychosis though.

It doesn't make you unaccountable though Ryoko, especially if he contributed to his own psychosis by abusing substances.

Do we lock up all people suffering from a mental illness then to save them and others from their actions?

Listen to yourself.

"So you think perfectly sane people go out on killing sprees do you, you think perfectly sane people commit suicide.

Stop attributing rational thinking to those incapable of it. "

By your logic then absolutely nobody in the history of civilisation is guilty of murder because insanity is a defence to murder and if you kill someone you are defacto insane.
You need to realise that there is a vast difference between legal insanity, which this man would not on the face of it appear to satisfy ,i.e. he knew the quality and nature of his acts and he knew that they were wrong (England has no irresistable impulse defence afaik you are still governed by the McNaughtan rules), and whatever your own subjective criteria for defining what is sane or is not?
Are you professionally qualified in this area? what are your credentials for assertitng what is sane and not sane behaviour as this would influence the validity of your posts greatly.

Yes you lock them up and give them treatment in mental hospitals, until such a time as they are deemed safe to release.

like we used to before this stupid care in the community money saving crap came into force.

I'm sure I read somewhere that half the prison population are deemed to be mentally ill

Lock up everyone who has a mental illness?

Ryoko, come on.....very medieval view you have there.

I do actually agree with Ryoko to some extent. We basically don't have a shoot to kill policy in this country, not really. We have rules of engagement and there's a good chance these were not adhered to by the police. Obviously no one knows yet but it is a possibility that the police Tazers resulted in him pulling the trigger.

Yes, Moat was a horrible horrible man and yes his actions towards the people he shot were horrendous. However we don't have justice from the barel of a gun here, we have trial by judge and jury and all the victims have been denied that process. Hopefully they weren't denied that process through a police mistake.

Ryoko, I think your line is a logical fallacy. You are looking at the act and thinking, that's a bad thing, therefore person who did the bad thing must be mad. That's the wrong way round. Someone who does something bad may be either sane or insane, you can't determine their mental state by looking at the crime.

Perfectly sane people do bad things all the time, all the way from speeding (which tends to be socially acceptable but can be ruddy dangerous) to mass murder.

And it's very unfair to people with mental illness to lump them in with dangerous criminals. If you look at your odds of being killed by someone else, you are far more likely to be murdered by a sane person than an insane one. (Thankfully in this country you'd be ruddy unlucky to be killed by anyone deliberately.)

FFS, this man was a murderous evil gun-toting psychopath. He had guns pointed at him because he had already shot several people and had a special hatred for the police. The police had NO responsibility to put their lives at risk while negotiating with this piece of shit. He could have given himself up quietly, but he didn't. In most countries he would have been shot straight away, no six hours of negotiating (after which, let's be clear, the police DIDN'T shoot him, they tasered him, though shooting would have been quite justified), because by proving himself to be a murderous evil psychopath, the safest option would have been to shoot him dead.

Gun-toting psychopaths shouldn't have the same expectations of gentle handling as someone arrested for nicking a bottle of Smirnoff from Tesco.

ooh mayor i heart the way you talk
dittany how are you my love?

If you can listen to Radio five live now, Victoria Derbyshire - interview ( I believe) with victims sister or at least an article about her. Should be interesting and may shed some light on what we are all debating .

I do find it curious that Moat is being touted by the public as some kind of anti-hero. Apparently some message boards are basically saying 'good on yer mate'. If this had happened in the States he would have been shot by the police long before he shot himself.

It is very sad what happened - awful, and dreadful that he ended his own life and clearly wasn't well. But as people have said - he was a murderer! What's more, his words after he shot his former girlfriend (and mother of his daughter) that she was to blame, that she essentially 'made him do it', chilled me to the bone. Words of an abusive, controlling, bullying man. That poor woman will have to live with those words ringing in her ears.

Just been reading the statement by the policeman shot at point blank range by Moat as he sat in his patrol car. He played dead as the gunman took aim and shot him a second time. If he hadn't doubtless he would have been shot a third time and wouldn't be alive to be saying anything. As well as other appalling injuries, his eye socket and one of his eyes was blown to smithereens. Despite being in terrible pain, and still without moving or showing any reaction to give away the fact that he was still alive he whispered for help on his radio. "I was trying to make as little noise as possible even though there was blood everywhere in my nose and throat."

Despite all this his thoughts are for the family of Chris Brown and he 'forgives' Raoul Moat.

An officer who was first on the scene wrote:
Dave, from hearing you on the radio to attending and seeing you at the scene, your family should be immensely proud of the brave and courageous way you conducted yourself despite your terrible injuries.
'I have never witnessed such professionalism in such terrible circumstances.'

Humbling or what?

Incredibly humbling Fontella. I think he said he bears Raoul Moat no malice didn't he. What an incredible man.

sam Browns half sister who was rdio 5 live - blames the police for Moats death
Bloody annoyed that they didn't ask about the shooting of the policeman and what she thought of that !

also she can't go and see her sister in hospital as her mother has an injunction against her as they 'don't get on'

The word 'dysfunctional' comes to mind .

Fontella I didn't know that. What an amazing man.

Shame there isn't a FB group saying what a legend he is

Someone start it please ?- I have no idea about facebook .

Word would be easily spread throough MN.

Just looked - there are already quite a lot of groups saying that

who's Sam Brown?

Disfunctional or not, I think that Sam Stobbart's family have every right to feel upset that Moat never made it to trial. Whether that's the fault of Moat himself or the police is something we really can't know yet.

ok sam stobbard - brown was her now dead boyfrieds name

dysfunctional - in that there is an injunction stopping her from going to hospital to see her sister .

They may be upset that he didn't egt a trial - but they are blaming the police for his death - not saying he shouldn't have killed himself . They are saying he is dead because of the police.

Well... Chris brown's own mother blames the police too.

For not acting when they were warned that Moat was a danger right at the begingin. I believe this aspect of the case was referred to the police complaints commission right at the start.

She also blames Samantha Stobbard for telling Moat her son was a policeman, as it seems do a lot of people.

The police are damned if they do and damned if they don't though aren't they. I wonder if they employed that many resources because of the flak they got over the Cumbria shootings. And if they hadn't contained Moat and then had another Cumbria on their hands they would have been blamed for that too.

Moat was mentally ill and violent. Why are people blaming his ex-girlfriend?

MissM - because people prefer to blame women for men's actions.

Many many people still don't get taught that people are responsible for their own feelings, behaviour and actions. So they blame the wrong people.

I think people want it to be a 'one man standing up nobly against the system' archetype, particularly if they have grievances of their own against the police/social workers. So they are finding every way possible to ignore the inconvenient truth that he was a violent bully, and saying the women involved are liars is the easiest way to do it.