Yasmin Alibhai-Brown on the burka

[mrsruffallo]

Have to say I agree with her. She makes an eloquent case against the burka, and the dilemma facing liberals in Europe on this issue.

funny that I should be branded the "alternative" view

Where is Cote D'Azur btw

GothAnne, I'm sorry to hear you were treated that way. It's awful.

There was a very interesting article in (I belive) this month's Oprah about an American mother, married to a Muslim man (I forget his country of origin )and their daughter, who decided through no pressure at age 9 that she wanted to wear a headscarf.

Mathanxiety is as usual very articulate and cogent.

"The burqa in particular is a community custom (and not traditionally a religious obligation at all) from a place where participatory democracy and personal freedom of even the most basic kind are anathema (Saudi Arabia). To appeal to these western values as the basis of tolerance of this "community fetish" (to quote the article) is truly ironic."

There is an incoherency of thought in the pro-niqab conversation with regard to wearing it in a European or western environment, or any culture where face-covering is not a cultural norm.

Goth Ann, I have made it very clear from the beginning that I am not discussing the theological merits of niqab but the relevance of such a ban from a sociological standpoint.

So all this bickering about I am more virtuous/muslim than you is really completely pointless.
but am sad to see that I am proven right on the fact that if I do not cover my head I not a good enough muslim in your eyes.

The reality about "hijacking" is just that.

Math to some people it is, it is vital aspect of devotion. And I support their right to wear it.

In all honesty SGB I really don't have the answer to those enforced to wear it. It's a form of domestic violence! Unfortunately I think you can only stop it by education education education.

Slim it is unfortunate, but that is generally what happens when you are a minority community. If something happens in your community, burkha's terrorism, forced marriages, you "as a muslim" are immediately asked "what are your feelings on..." and effectively I do think we are forced to condone or condemn everything outwardly muslim related. I haven't had any experience with community councils though, could you please expand upon that.

GothAnne, I don't think it's productive to go down the "I know more muslims than you.../ you're not a good muslim" line. You don't know slim personally and it isn't pleasant. She has an opinion just like all of us and it's as valid as everyone elses. All the muslims on this forum are calling for other muslims to come forward and put their thoughts forward and that was slim's. Not all muslim's agree with the niqab and that's that. It was a very good article though!

"Not OK though to impose it on young girls and preetens. I think in this respect the french solution is quite sensible as it allows girls to experience both. they have two specific spheres of privacy (school/home) and can experiment being their own little person. That's more conducive to intelligent choice.

Campion, very good point. Niqab is a recent apparition, correlated to the apparition of political fundamental Islam."

It shouldn't be imposed upon young girls and pre teens. The requirement is to wear it from the age you reach puberty (which is different for every girl but i think the rule is generally 13). the problem with the French solution is that it bans it in secondary school (if I'm not mistaken) which is when these girls are supposed to be wearing it according to their religion.

I distinctly remember seeing people wearing niqab's 20 years ago. But then I lived in a very muslim area. I do agree it is becoming more and more widespread though.

Songbiird - I am all in favour of more education for women about their rights etc. It's important not to forget that some Christians can be just as brutally misogynist as some Muslims (oh and TBH it;s true of all superstitions - because they exist at least partly to allow the powerful to retain their power by convincing others that this power comes from a Big Supernatural Thingy and therefore MUST be respected, religion is always a popular tool for abusers) though I can see that education/outreach for specifically Muslim women in oppressive situations needs to start from a Muslim perspective to have any hope of reaching those who need it.

France has set the example, we should become a secular country where symbols of female oppression should be banned in public places!

But cultural reativism will see the burqa and all its variants being worn for a few more generations before Islam makes it out of the middle ages.

SolidGoldBrass, you make a valid point about change having to come from within Islam. Muslims tend to resist anything from outside Islam.

Unfortunately as proven here, muslims tend resist anything from within Islam too.

At least it seems that when you are not muslim they are willing to engage in discussion. Not so, from where I stand because am not entitled to speak as a muslim.

And of course YAB's voice is disgracefully dissonant to their ears too.
A truly muslim women should know better than trying to show we can have a different perspective and be published in The Guardian, Observer, The New York Times, Time Magazine, Newsweek, The Evening Standard, The Mail and other very prominent newspapers no less.

Slim I don't think that's fair, I don't mind people having an opinion and actually I like YAB and enjoy reading her columns. I just don't agree with her on banning the burkha and I'm allowed that opinion. I don't think she or other muslims of the same opinion are any less religious.

Muslim's will resist not "anything" but laws and diktats from governments regarding their religion and how they practice it and so do many religions. But I don't see what the problem with that is. The British public don't want to be part of Europe because "we don't want them making laws for us". Ok so paraphrasing and it isn't all the British public but from what I gather a large majority.

It is however up to the Islamic leaders, sheikhs and Imams to promote a more moderate Islam. After all, Islam was originally described as "The Middle Way".

Onestone - the burkha isn't the only symbol of female oppression. How about the necessity and promotion of female beauty above brains. How many women are in the cabinet in this progressive society? Why does there seem to be a glass ceiling for women? Page 3 of the sun. There are many many feminist issues regarding women in society yet so many people seem to be distracted by the issue of the Burkha.

It's just not respectful at all to wear a mask. I wouldn't ban it because it wouldn't work, and British people are so stroppy that the day you do, the streets will be full of burkhas. But it's so disrespectful. Abuse, shouting and spitting is awful, but burkha wearers shouldn't be surprised at hostility and suspicion and shouldn't complain about it.

Slim - I never said you were a bad Muslim. I challenge you to pick out where I said you were. So don't play the Meanie Muslim card.

You tried to make out that Riven and I were some isolated minority and I countered that statement. Mentioning places where Muslims gather is not a theological analysis.

Backforthis "Abuse, shouting and spitting is awful, but burkha wearers shouldn't be surprised at hostility and suspicion and shouldn't complain about it."

This is a disgusting attitude and utterly indefensible. It's a piece of cloth. If it's getting you upset to the point of violence then you have serious issues.

Songbird, I know am generalising sorry, but as an immigrant its infuriating being branded a lesser muslim by another muslim when you have had to crawl your way up through every possible prejudice to graduate from university and make room for yourself in this society.
And by a convert.

No, I think violence is awful, that's what I said. Violence, shouting, spitting, the abuse. I think you must have read wrong, or I wasn't clear. As distinct from hostility and suspicion.

Slim 22- For wht it's worth, all of the muslims that I know echo your views.
I was a bit surprised at YAB's views being dismissed as 'she doesn't even wear a veil'
That has got to be worrying

Goth- As thid discussion proves, it is a lot more than a piece of cloth

Yes I don't understand this : it's just a piece of cloth. It's a very strange defence. I've read it before though.

Can I just reiterate, I really wouldn't defend the abuse and violence some have been subject to, not in any way.

"SGD you have a very valid point but outreach programmes will not work. They'll be accused of trying to curb the faith / corrupt the innocent minds of the women they are trying to reach out to.
You have to reach out to the men. I can't see how liberal muslim women could do that.
They'd be met with contempt as would not be considered as "muslim".
Muslim men are not open to discussion. "
What are you about Slim22? why do you assume that muslim men are forcing women to wear hijab? I have been wearing hijab for 14 years (am now 34)I know many many hijab wearing women, most of whom are educated, professional women. NONE of them has had the decision to wear hijab made for them by anyone. In my case, my husband does not have a strong conviction about hijab and would have probably preferred if it I did not wear it but it is my choice. I frequently read these sort of threads and I am always baffled and insulted by this obsessive belief that its the men pulling the strings. In my vast experience this is utter crap. As a woman its my choice and ultimately an act of faith, nothing more.
As for niqab wearers, I would'nt wear myself but I think its wrong for the state to take away that choice for women.

"I guarantee Riven and I know more Muslims then you. How many masjids, halaqas, eid parties, qiyams, khatams, aqiqas, iftars have you been to? How often do you read Muslim blogs, websites or any other type of Muslim media? "

GothAnne -- that's where you accused Slim22 of being less of a Muslim than you.

Songbird, you are implying here that wearing a niqab is as aspect of personal choice, something chosen as a matter of devotion, with the associated right to wear it -- "Math to some people it is, it is vital aspect of devotion. And I support their right to wear it.

But further on you make it clear that there is no personal choice involved, that wearing the niqab is not optional or a personal decision that is up to a girl once she reaches puberty, depending on her own personal level of devotion, it is a requirement -- "The requirement is to wear it from the age you reach puberty (which is different for every girl but i think the rule is generally 13). the problem with the French solution is that it bans it in secondary school (if I'm not mistaken) which is when these girls are supposed to be wearing it according to their religion."

"Muslim's will resist not "anything" but laws and diktats from governments regarding their religion and how they practice it and so do many religions. But I don't see what the problem with that is." Some Muslims appear to have an issue with the right of cartoonists and newspaper editors to publish cartoons that are not illegal in the countries where they are published, ditto for filmmakers, novelists, even Muslim ones. In what sense is issuing a fatwa respectful of human rights or the laws of any given country where murder is illegal?

Math - It was meant as a social thing. Slim was implying that we are isolated and unrepresentative of wider Muslim society. I was stating that this is not the case.

The thing of it is, if burkas (burquas? I'm sorry, I don't know the correct spelling) did not exist, and a well-known feminist declared, "I'm tired of our looks-ist culture, I'm tired of being an object for men, etc, etc," and as a radical feminist act designed a garment that completely covered her, it would be an entirely different thing altogether.

So is it actually the "mask" in question? Is it the religion behind it, is it the misogyny angle?

FWIW, I know lots of Somali Muslim women who are bright, educated women who choose to wear headscarves, and I would defend to the death their right to do so. (I think I said that on another thread already... )

But you were essentially asking her how much involvement or engagement she had with wider Muslim society in comparison with you and Riven. Therefore "more Muslim"?

I get that it's an individual's right to choose what to wear, but despite this debate raging on all over the press, the net, on here etc I have yet to hear one muslim woman state exactly why they wear the veil/ headscarf/ other religious covering and the men in their families/ communities do not.

The best I ever get in answer to this question is 'but some men do'. Er, I've never seen any. Or 'actually, the Koran says that men should dress modestly too'. Right, but why do men get to interpret that as jeans and a jumper while women have to use religious coverings.

So why is it that women have to cover and men don't, and on what planet can this not be seen as sexist?

It's the only question I have. I've never had it answered.

Math - Nope. How Muslim you are/how good a Muslim you are is between you and God.

How many Muslims you know, speak to, meet, read is a social issue. As I've already stated, Slim was saying that Riven and I were isolated and unrepresentative, I was disputing that statement.

MorrisZapp - Why should Muslim women have to teach you or explain to you?

However, I'm feeling generous so here you go

There's some good results there. You might have to do some sifting, but it's enough to get started.

"...I want him to consider wearing clothes like his dad to be normal for him and not a huge change when he grows up so he only wears shorts that go below the knee as well. I don't have any daughters so I don't know but I suspect I would feel the same about them."

This seems to me to be conditioning. I wonder about the level of personal choice for children growing up, and what exactly goes into the decision to wear a niqab when you're a 13 year old girl.