Yasmin Alibhai-Brown on the burka

[mrsruffallo]

Have to say I agree with her. She makes an eloquent case against the burka, and the dilemma facing liberals in Europe on this issue.

The answer to that one is that the niqab is relentlessly pushed by Saudi Arabian Wahhabis, who have spent millions and millions of pounds, euros and dollars to establish mosques, fund fundamentalist scholars and schools, and push the (fundamentalist) Wahhabi teachings worldwide, silencing critics through intimidation of Inquisition-like proportions and trying to impose their ultra-conservative views of male-female relations and the place of women in society on Muslims around the world (and succeeding too by the looks of it).

Wahhabis want to unify Islam under their banner and don't do tolerance of other brands of Islam or of Infidels (anything not Islamic).

Hmm - that's encouraging

Fundamentalist = worrying (in my book).

I'm not comfortable with the banning. It comes across as "Western modern" having to save poor stuck in the dark ages Muslims. I don't see how the argument works that the Government is helping oppression of women when they now are also oppressing them. They should wear what they want. Many now won't go out because of this. That's just wrong IMO

Math I have a lot of time for you generally so i'm not attacking you in any way. The attacks on Islam are not just "perceived" they are there for everyone to see. Many muslims feel like they are being attacked. There are areas of England where it is hard for you to live if you are muslim (or even look muslim). There's all this nonsense being spouted about the "islamification of Britain" and there are many people who agree with the sentiments - and I'm not just talking about racist/ignorant bnp sorts but many others. I've sat places and had people talking around or even too me about this same subject and then they are surprised when I say but I'm muslim. Then after their mouths have closed I get, "well we don't mind ones like you, but....."

I don't condone terrorism of any sort and this involves the lower level flag/effigy burning, ranting against "the west" etc etc. But it is fueled by this post 9/11 surveillance of Islam and it's adherants. The few (and in the grand scheme of things they are the few) nutters who commit crimes in the name of Islam appear to be the loudest voices of Islam. They are the ones that get splashed across the the media. It's either "we hate the west" or "we love the west and everything about".

I also think it's pretty bad form to compare fgm with veil wearing.

And one last thing I still wear my moms clothes, she's got outstanding taste and I often can't wait to rummage through her wardrobe. Maybe it becomes normal for young children who grow around women wearing hijab/friends/ older siblings to just wear it and not be fussed or see "it's men subjugating us" I'm far more concerned with children's bikini's that are readily on sale in any high street store come summer.

I see that there is a problem. I just don't think banning it is the answer.

And although I brought up fgm, I don't see it in the same category as veiling at all -- sorry not to have made that clear. Both items appeared in the same post, but the reference to fgm was in the context of an argument for a direct approach to dealing with ingrained traditions that have been transplanted to an entirely different place and culture rather than in the context of saying they are both the same or two sides of the same coin or linked.

Yes, there are reprehensible attacks on Muslims, truly a horrible phenomenon. The Pakistani government action I referred to was about closing access to Youtube and Facebook in Pakistan, and I wonder how much of this was due to pressures the government faces from fundamentalist forces within Pakistan to be seen to be standing up for Islam.

OK I understand where you're coming from now.

The actions of the pakistani government does seem to be getting more and more bizarre and I do think fundamentalism is becoming more and more rife there. TBH it seems that since bhutto, that country has become more and more dangerous, and it doesn't make sense to me the banning of facebook and youtube after all there are just as many pro islamic videos and support on both of them. Thus it becomes another matter. A matter purely of controlling the people of Pakistan.

Yes that's my view too. After all, why just ban them in Pakistan -- it's not the only majority Islamic state, or even the most eager to be identified as a theocracy.

Math I don't think the FB banning by Pakistan was to appease fundamentalists. The Everybody Draw Mohammed campaign is an affront to all Muslims. It may be the fundamentalists that go around killing people but all Muslims in general are hurt by the supposedly funny depictions of the Prophet. To get back at fundamentalists what the campaign did was to target all Muslims.

I think the campaign is an affront to the idea that drawing the Prophet is an offense for which you can receive justifiable death threats, but then I think I have a fair bit of Scandinavian in me, via Normandy to Ireland.

I would never dream of participating in the campaign because I think it's wrong to be blatantly disrespectful of anyone's religious beliefs, but I also think it's wrong to issue fatwas, and I think this campaign is more about asserting the right to freedom of thought and expression than about affronting Muslims in general.

Completely true megapixels, but the thing is, the Pakistani response is like throwing the baby out with the bathwater. I got loads of "boycott facebook for a day" emails, but just didn't see the point. It's reactions like these (a whole nation being banned from facebook) that the flipping looneys who think this kind of thing is funny, are trying to get. I didn't realise this was the reason they did it though.

The idea that asserting freedom of speech and thought is to target all Muslims is to try to unite all Muslims under the one banner too, though -- promoting the idea that any criticism is both an affront to all and equally threatening is to foster a bunker mentality. Maybe there are Muslims who think Danish cartoonists have a right to publish a cartoon of the Prophet in a Danish newspaper, who must now wonder if they are too wishy-washy about their religion?

Takes baton from Riven

If you do not think that niqab bans are rooted in racism and othering then you are very foolish indeed.

Verbal abuse and worse are a sad fact of life for many visibly Muslim women. I have been spat at, sworn at and informed that I should be killed (the latter happened while I was out with dd in a pushchair).

I was out walking with a niqab wearing woman and her baby daughter. People were casually rolling down their windows and shouting out abuse as they drove by. You, see Muslims aren't quite human to many people, so it's no bad thing to insult us.

My response, just leave us alone. Stop writing about us, we are more diverse then you think and we are well aware of the issues facing our community.

The thing is, people advocating the banning of the burkha are forcing or wanting niqabees (or whatever) to dilute their religion for the simple reason that it makes them feel uncomfortable. Herein lies the problem.

There are many many things in other religions that are oft discomforting and are far more dangerous, that are not being banned. Sikh's who carry their religious dagger are not asked to stop. Sikh men are allowed to wear their turban in place of a helmet on a motorcycle. There are far more instances of Jehovah's Witnesses dying after refusing blood (or refusing blood on behalf of their children) than a man committing a robbery dressed in a burkha. I don't like Jehovah's Witnesses or mormons knocking on my door and demanding asking that I see the light, but I wouldn't say ban it, I'd just say no thanks, and shut the door.

Nobody would ask a person to "tone down" their sexuality because homosexuality makes them feel uncomfortable. That would be unthinkable and so it should. Yet a muslim would say being a muslim is as innate as having a certain sexuality, gender, race etc.

There was a big thing about hoodies, and loads of people came out in defense of them for the simple reason - because a few wear them with bad intentions, it doesn't mean everybody in a hoodie is a bad person, a lout, an asbo waiting to happen. Similarly, not every woman wearing the niqab is a terrorist, or out to get you, or hateful of western culture. If I choose to cover my breasts, by not wearing tight fitting tops/boob tubes/ bikini tops etc it isn't because I think every man who sees me is going to want to sleep with me, it's because that's what I think is modesty. A woman who wears a veil across her face doesn't assume every man who sees her is going to lust over her, it's just her version of modesty.

Songbiird: but what do you think should be done to help the women who are only wearing the niquab, burka etc under threat of violence rather than having made a personal choice to do so?

biscuits and bandages, Its fine by and actually actively encouraged to discover (be it religion) through play. Not OK though to impose it on young girls and preetens. I think in this respect the french solution is quite sensible as it allows girls to experience both. they have two specific spheres of privacy (school/home) and can experiment being their own little person. That's more conducive to intelligent choice.

Campion, very good point. Niqab is a recent apparition, correlated to the apparition of political fundamental Islam.

I ,too ,am unhappy that small girls are wearing hijab at younger and younger ages. I see it as conditioning - the younger you start, the easier it is to impose.

They aren't given any real choice and must grow up with the belief that the human body is either shameful or something to be lusted after. Very odd.

the veil is a sad sight, whether the wearer is 7 or an adult.

Songbird, I do identify with your experience. I lived In big cities in France/Italy/The Netherlands for 10 years before moving to london where I lived 9 years.
Am an immigrant myself. Married to one. We have first hand experience of the identity problems of muslim immigrants in Europe.

Am sick of being apologetic. What the Niqab conveys is not representative of what most of us are.
It is a political statement and one that is being counter productive.
Riven,GothAnnGeddes, you free to live a life of piety and introspection but you are making the life of millions of muslims difficult by hijacking their identity and effectively forcing them to take sides for or against their community councils.

Chili is absolutely right. It's incredibly disrespectful to Western culture to wear a burkha. It's mask and a symbol of oppression or hostility, even though every woman wearing it may not be oppressed or hostile.

One ought to be respectful of the morees of local culture in dress and behaviour, without a doubt. It's what I was brought up to do and I'm proud of it.

"I'm proud of it".. that is rather ridiculous, I'm not that proud of it. It's just something that comes automatically and I think it's important.

Slim22, thank you for the alternative Muslim view.

"Yet a muslim would say being a muslim is as innate as having a certain sexuality, gender, race etc." But is wearing the niqab really a part of being a devout Muslim?

I would like to know more about the role of community councils in setting the tone of the community wrt the niqab.

Slim22 - 'Hijacking their identity' How dare you. Hijab and niqab are a form of dress worn by some Muslims and we are both Muslims and so are entitled to wear them if we choose.

You are the epitome of the 'Saviour of Muslim Women' that has Muslim women everywhere rolling their eyes because you think you know best and have no interest in what Muslim women actually think.

Oh and as for stating that 'Muslim men are not open to discussion', those are our Husbands, brothers, sons, fathers, friends etc you are insulting and there is no way you have any right to make such a gross generalisation.

As for stating that Riven only speaks for a minority of Muslims, since when do you have a hotline?

I guarantee Riven and I know more Muslims then you. How many masjids, halaqas, eid parties, qiyams, khatams, aqiqas, iftars have you been to? How often do you read Muslim blogs, websites or any other type of Muslim media?

As for saying that France has got it right with it's hijab ban, I recently saw footage of the entrance gates to a Turkish University, where hijab is banned. Woman after women had to stop and remove her hijab under the supervision of guards. That is hideously demeaning and just as wrong as forcing a woman to cover up.

Everyone making that "We know what's best for Muslim women argument", please read [http://www.altmuslimah.com/a/b/a/3171/ this]]

this

"Sikhs who carry their religious dagger are not asked to stop."

This should be changed. Like the niqab and the Islamic faith, carrying a kirpan as an actual dagger, an offensive weapon, is not a requirement of being a Sikh. It is enough to wear the symbol. In south Asia Sikhs do not find it necessary to always wear the kirpan. It seems to be an issue of identity and self-assertion outside Asia though.

Excuse repeated postings: just want to be consistent -- also believe a parent should be disallowed from refusing a blood transfusion for a child on religious grounds. If they can even do that right now. I understood in a recent case the child decided for himself, but was a minor.