Yasmin Alibhai-Brown on the burka

[mrsruffallo]

Have to say I agree with her. She makes an eloquent case against the burka, and the dilemma facing liberals in Europe on this issue.

If someone asked me how much I am involved in the Catholic community or how much I read that is Catholicism-related when I had expressed my opinion on a matter related to Catholicism, I would consider that my credentials were being questioned.

Once in a while, I think it'd be nice if it was acknowledged that the UK is a far more tolerant country than many in the world. People have come from other countries and settled here, enjoying freedoms unheard of in their 'home' country. This must be one of the reasons that attracted them, as well as the opportunity to succeed.

But Britain does / did have a culture of its own too - developed during centuries of religious , social and industrial upheaval. It's now fashionable to mock christianity and regard anything resembling accepted mores as reactionary, outdated nonsense.

It has never been accepted practice to cover your face in our society, and doing so signals, above all, separation from the wider society. It's instinctive to pick up cues from people's faces and to be denied that immediately creates a division.
As a non-muslim I feel excluded.

I don't understand how the muslim women on here try to pretend that they are not being victimised by their religion.
Both the Kuran (4:34) and the Hadith (on several occasions) totally endorse wife-beating and wife's obedience to her husband.

And to the poster who said many of her Somali friends wear the veil out of choice, I wonder how many of them have been subjected to circumcision (removal of their clitoris and/or labia) to make them "good muslims"?
Let's be honest and tell it as it is; you may be "emancipated" but for the vast majority of muslim women choice is not an option.

I don't get how anyone can be offended by what others wear. I certainly have more important things to worry about. And even if Muslim women are being oppressed by men, how is the state further oppressing them going to help? "We are the West, here we come on our white horses" .

junglist, the state has to intervene when its values (and laws) of equality, fairness and democracy are infringed.
Society shouldn't turn a blind eye to women's oppression just because it's a religious or cultural thing.

I so agree with Campion. I so agree with you Campion.

But these women are saying they believe God wants them to dress like that, and if they can't they won't go out. The society is then itself oppressing these women further IMO

Well what if someone believed God wanted them to go to Tesco's in the nude?

Fanjos in Tesco isn't the same

Tis though. It's not a religious requirement either. Just what someone feels God wants them to do.

well that's a shame I have to go

was looking forward to discussing the religious dichotomy of fanjos in the ready meals aisle and burkhas at the bus stop

Cheers backto...etc...

You'd get arrested in Tesco cos it's against the law. So we do have some restrictions on appearance already. The law didn't get involved in covered faces because, well, I guess it didn't occur to anyone it would ever be happening in the way it now is.

Campion your name has got a song stuck in my head that I can't get rid of (off topic)
It goes "Walk like a champion talk like a champion whatta piece of body gal tell me where you get it from". It's doing my nut in!!

That's what I'm getting at -- "God told me to do it" isn't any kind of defence.

Still wouldn't ban it. Given the perversity of British people, a ban would be a very good reason for swift investment in burkha-manufacturing stocks and shares.

Would like to see it reclaimed and subverted, maybe with Katharine Hamnett style slogans, or cut outs, or animal prints, or sheer, or urban camouflage. There are great possibilities there.

Fanjos in Tesco...hee hee!

Onestone, I believe you were referring to me, and none of them have had FGM.

Junglist- It's not a case of 'here comes the west on their white horse' We are living in the west, as are these women. And I guess they are choosing to be here rather than an Islamic country so why segregate themselves?
It's arrogance of the highest order.

I agree with campion btw- we are very tolerant people, I am tired of hearing we are all racist and that society is so bad. People from all over the world wouldn't want to come and live here if it was that bad

Crocs with socks???!!! Now THAT needs banning

Nobody says they aren't British, who said that?

Riven that's SOOO hostile, all that "since when is it anyone's duty" etc etc. It's definitely right to respect the cultural norm like wot one does in other countries but you know, no one's going to make you (as in Saudi) -- tis just a matter of respect and courtesy. Your choice.

It's strange, like going out with a paper bag over your head with two holes in. Tis nothing but the face mask that alienating. The flowing robes we should definitely adopt and turn fab and gorgeous. And put flowers on the headdress. Lovely.

"Its an interesting experince being 'the only muslim in the village' for a bit. Most british muslims avoid coasts and national parks for this reason. Which is sad."

that is completely bizarre

I would never dream of abusing someone who's wearing the hijab, if anything they're victims (of their husbands/brothers/superstition/their upbgringing, etc).
But I can tell you I felt like shouting abuse at pretty much everyone when I was in Saudi Arabia for making me wear the Abaya. Women have no human rights there. The hotel where I stayed also had rooms for women (car park view, non-smoking only), whereas the men's rooms had lovely sea-views. Of course the men could go out, to the beach or to the gym, and the women coudn't (you can ony go out with a male relative). We had to phone restaurants beforehand to see if they accepted women customers!!!(I didn't go, I htought "fuck this place")
I risked my life by going on the balcony, in a bath-robe, smoking a cigarette.

The local guide informed us that every Friday outside the mosque near the hotel they do public stonings (after the prayers). Imagine how I felt on the Friday morning knowing that a few hundreds away there was some poor girl who was getting killed for possibly the crime of having been raped.

I wish muslim women could break the cycle of abuse and superstition for which there is no place in civilised society.

but Muslims aren't of one race

abuse is wrong but you should go where you like

if you wear a mask though you're bound to feel different to everyone else -- tis not their fault

"are hermits arrogant too? Or anyone who dresses differently from the norm."

it's not about dress, this has been said on so many times on threads with you about this Riven but you don't seem to take it in

it's about wearing a MASK

so really, you can stop comparing it to being a goth or a hermit or whatever, well you don't have to but there's nothing in it, no point to be made

the cultural norm is the uncovered face -- Britain is fabulously tolerant of differently dressed people but the uncovered face is a cultural norm which you don't fit, so if you feel different you can't blame it on anyone else's intolerance