Yasmin Alibhai-Brown on the burka

[mrsruffallo]

Have to say I agree with her. She makes an eloquent case against the burka, and the dilemma facing liberals in Europe on this issue.

Goth - Please stop misrepresenting what I have said.

I did not "argue" that headscarf ban in public places (incl. universities) was "essential for Turkey to remain a secular state".

Someone did not ask me about Ataturk. She asked me about how Ottoman Empire ended and Turkey began.

I did not say that the state Ataturk founded "was liberal for all". (What does that even mean? ) In fact, I did not use the word "liberal" at all.

What I have said was that Turks were very lucky because he could have been another Saddam but instead decided that Turkey should be a secular republic with a democratic system, that women should have equal rights with men, that women should have the right to vote, that alphabet should be Latin alphabet instead of Arabic (which dramatically increased literacy rates), etc. Despite personal shortcomings and political mistakes, Turks are grateful to him for this, which is why he is still revered in Turkey.

Now, if you are clear on all this, it would be good to move back to the real subject of this thread.

littleducks - Why does your 4 yr old DD sometimes wear a headscarf? I'm curious. Does she sometimes want to imitate you or do you expect her to wear it at certain times or places?

She wears it to and from madressa fairly regularly as she prefers that to carrying in her book bag otherwise its only really after going to the mosqu,e she does 'dress up' with scarves (and the usual array of princess dresses, 'saris' and over excessive plastic jewellery) at home i suppose possibly in imitation of me or her older cousins etc. but like the rest of her dress up stuff i dont really encourage it outside the house.

"He willngly replaced the caliphate to implement man-made laws."
(Tums)

Anyone who wonders what fundamentalism has to offer the west need look no further. Man made laws are the basis of western society. They are a guarantee of western human rights. The opposite is a theocratic dictatorship, the embodiment of god's law on earth (as interpreted by men...)

I don't think an uncovered woman would get very far outside her home in Afghanistan, Scanty. The more influence the Taliban has there the less freedom of choice about the burqa women seem to have.

"Muslim women are encouraged not to desire that attention from men, and the easiest way to do that, is to cover yourself." Does that mean that if a woman receives attention from a man, she must have been deficient in her covering-up or her intentions? Are Muslim men similarly encouraged not to pay women that sort of attention in public? If they are, why is it necessary for women to cover? Can the men not be trusted?

"Does that mean that if a woman receives attention from a man, she must have been deficient in her covering-up or her intentions? Are Muslim men similarly encouraged not to pay women that sort of attention in public? If they are, why is it necessary for women to cover? Can the men not be trusted?"

No on the first, third and fourth; that isn't what I said or implied.

The point is that she covers up as her intention is not to receive untoward attention. You cannot however control other people.

Yes on the second, men are told not to give a woman any untoward attention.

Again as I have said time and time again, men are also supposed to cover, however as happens in a patriarchal society, more focus is put upon what women wear.

OK, the author pours scorn on the furore about the 'piece of cloth' yet further on castigates France for turning a blind eye to the idea of religious freedom.

Which is it, a piece of cloth, or something religious?

And he is wrong. Turkey does not "forbid women to wear face veils" (Is that even good English?)