Yasmin Alibhai-Brown on the burka

[mrsruffallo]

Have to say I agree with her. She makes an eloquent case against the burka, and the dilemma facing liberals in Europe on this issue.

Cote - Stop calling me ignorant, please. You really are in no position to call anyone ignorant and your remarks about the athan prove that.

You're the one who claimed that forcibly making women strip was acceptable and then started gushing all over Ataturk as some kind of dream leader and started crying about Turkey being doomed if women were allowed to dress as they pleased.

I was merely pointing out that for Kurds and many others, both him and his legacy were far from ideal.

Treatment of Kurds and other minorities is an inherent problem of the Turkish state and it's nationalism. Turkification is his baby and many have suffered as a result of it. Since this thread is about Muslim women and some Kurds are both, it is relevant.

Tbh your responses smack of someone wanting to take their ball home.

Ataturk is a hugely controversial figure, hence not everyone will share your glowing opinion of him.

As I said, start another thread if that subject is so dear to your heart.

Meanwhile, anyone reading this thread knows that you are grossly misrepresenting what I have said, so I don't know what you think you are achieving.

No, I'll stay on this one thanks, no matter what you or an imaginary anyone thinks.

Telling me to go elsewhere, especially when I am a Muslim woman on a thread talking about Muslim women is downright rude.

Seriously, where do you get off telling me how I can't or can't respond?

I think you mean CAN or CAN'T, Goth.....

What is the Turkish view on Ataturk? I was under the impression he was revered in Turkey - was always told never to insult him or make any jokes (he does look like Dracula) about him as this would be offensive. Seriously curious.

Why am I being called a fundamentalist?

How dare you cote?? Do you know me?

I was quoting my Turkish friends.

Not everyone is a blind fool. What was wrong with the caliphate anyway?

You are very ignorant and I feel sorry for you.

tums - When you rant about replacing the Caliphate with "man made laws", you come across as a fundamentalist.

For the rest of us, it is normal for a country to be governed by man-made laws. All Western countries are governed by man-made laws. You live in a country governed by man-made laws.

I'm curious - When you get together with these friends of yours, do you rant about the UK's man-made laws, or is this a singular honor reserved to immigrants' native countries?

Yes Cote, I have read about Ataturk's achievemants in the past, 'the Father' of modern day Turkey etc. I'm interested in what modern day Turks like yourself think about Ataturk now - do they still look up to him? Just that a previous poster said something along the lines that muslims they know do not have that viewpoint regarding him. Wasn't sure if they were referring to Turkish muslims or muslims from other countries.

99.9% of Turkey is Muslim, so "Muslims don't like Ataturk" is a false statement, given his huge popularity in Turkey.

Aside from some ultra-religious people who are not happy with Turkey's secularity like tums & goth's friends ("man-made laws" ), the vast majority of Turks are eternally grateful to Ataturk and revere him as a sort of demi-God in Turkey. This is why tourists are told not to make ridiculing comments, because it is a sure way to unnecessarily offend people in Turkey.

Personally, I wouldn't say I "look up to him", knowing a bit about his many faults as a person (alcoholism etc) and I don't know anyone who does. However, I am grateful to him. Turkey is very different than all other Muslim countries in the world, and he is the person to thank for that.

Which is why Muslim fundamentalists hate him so. But they are a tiny minority of Turks at home and abroad.

But it's not only ethnic Turks who live in Turkey Cote, why do you never mention them?

Indeed many, many Turks do hold Ataturk in very high regard. But please don't make out it's only a bunch of 'religious fundamentalists' who criticise him, that's not true and you know it.

Who is an ethnic Turk, Goth? Turks have come from Central Asia, where Turkish is still spoken. So we should look like Uzbeks and Kazakhs - flat faces, slanted eyes - but we don't, do we?

During the Ottoman times, Turks have mixed so much with other groups that at present day, those in the West look European and those in the East look Middle Eastern. My entire family tree of four generations is fair-skinned and blue or green-eyed. I probably have very little "ethnic Turk" in me, if at all.

Criticism is one thing, hatred is another. Lots of people "criticize" former leaders. After all, nobody is perfect. However, despite his faults and mistakes, Ataturk has been a leader of exceptional good for his country, at a time of great hardship, and when he could have just as easily declared the country his personal fiefdom. Truly, the only people who rant about him a la "awful, awful man" are the religious fundamentalists who are unhappy that Turkey is a secular republic ruled by "man-made laws". There is hatred there, born out of religious fervor.

Cote - You know exactly what I meant by ethnic Turk, but way to fudge the issue regardless.

How you can look at all the issues the Kurds have faced in Turkey and claim the only people who have a problem with Kemalism are 'religious fundamentalists', I do not know.

Also, I never said anything about 'man-made laws', either so please don't misquote me.

No, actually, I don't know what you mean, hence the previous post. By this point, I'm not too interested, but you can explain if you want to [sigh]

So you have a few Kurdish friends and they are not happy with the country they were born in, which is possibly why they emigrated. Or they were born in the UK, and never lived in Turkey at all. In either case, they are probably not the best people for you to base your opinion, let alone act like you know so much about the whole country and its history.

You didn't mention "man-made laws", tums did. She was ranting further down in the thread about how he "willingly replaced the caliphate to implement man-made laws".

Your level of denial is utterly astounding. The poor treatment of Kurds in Turkey (and in other countries too, sadly) is a fact, not some matter of opinion. Would someone have to come from South Africa to say Apartheid was wrong?

Thank you for proving that secularists can be just as brainwashed as the religious.

I have made no denial whatsoever. Kurds and indeed some other ethnic groups have been mistreated in Turkey at one time or another & for one reason or another.

What I have said was that this Kurd issue that you are enamoured with has no relevance to this thread. And that having a few Kurdish friends is a poor claim to authority on Turkey and its history.

You don't seem to be enjoying chatting with me and I'm not having a ball either, so let's end this here. See you around.

Just because you put something in bold, doesn't make it true. I've stated my reasoning pretty clearly, but you choose to overlook that.

Having read this thread from start to finish and visited Turkey a number of times, I'd say that GAG (and what a frickin' horrible picture your name always puts into my mind, sorry, but Anne Geddes is freaky enough without adding Goth to the mix!) you are getting hold of the wrong end of the stick and running madly with it.

Yes, Turkey's treatment of the Kurds is abhorrent, but that IS NOT RELEVANT (caps do you better?) to this thread!

Please explain what the Kurds have to do with the Burka issue, and maybe I'll concede you have a point.

You come over as very angry and defensive, and it does your cause no good at all...

Side-stepping the argument which imo is completely off subject ....

Was thinking about this before whilst coming across yet another "we'll wave our flags if we want to" or some other shite group on facebook; Can I liken the burkha to the St. Georges Cross (the England flag)? Some people (the BNP) have misappropriated it for ill gain and ill meaning. Does that now mean the English flag now represents racism, bigotry, prejudice and ignorance? Should all those who are proud of their country (football fans or not) and want to display it in their homes, cars, shirts etc. be banned from doing so in case it causes offence? Should those who are not from this country not be allowed to wave flags from their home country.

I honestly don't buy the "we don't like the burkha because it's degrading to women..." argument and believe that it is more likely that "we don't like it because it scares us..." (in terms of terrorism). Well some people find the English flag scary because of the connotations it raises with them, but then surely, they are being unreasonable. Ditto for the American flag.

Lovecat instead of a biscuit you can have this

I refer you to my previous post, GAG.

Angry and defensive. Never comes over well.

Still waiting to hear what the Kurds have to do with it... I imagine I'll be waiting a long time...

V. good point, Songbiird, re. the St George's flag. I feel v. uneasy when I see it displayed on people's homes and there's NOT a football match in the offing - makes me make all sorts of assumptions about the ones displaying it, even if they're not true.

I do, however, think that small girls in headscarves/coverings is abhorrent. Given what the scarf represents (modesty), it is putting a sexual inference on children and I just can't bear it.

I also wonder why men just can't control themselves. It's not difficult. It pees me off that women, once again, are expected to take responsibility for men's actions, which is why I dislike the idea of the veil. (I watched Persepolis over the weekend and am still over the whole thing of women having to cover because of controlling men)

On a totally frivolous note, I saw someone in town yesterday in a pink and silver headscarf/face veil, however, and it made such a nice difference - why does it always have to be black?

I'm a bit unsure about young girls wearing headscarves. It isn't an obligation, if my daughter said she didn't want to wear one I wouldn't put any pressure on her to do so. I would however encourage her to wear it when she comes of age, but it is her choice, that she has to make for herself and thus wouldn't put undue force/pressure on her. I also think that children wearing a headscarf is more prevalent in the west as it is easy for children to get lost in the non-Islamic culture. For example, in an Islamic country, children would grow up realising that it would be expected of them to wear a scarf when they grew up, because they would see it daily from pretty much everyone around them. However that is not the case when you are living in a secular country.

Also the thing about men not controling themselves. That isn't completely about what covering yourself is about, it helps, but that isn't what is at the core of it. It's about your own intentions as a woman. If you don't care whether men find you attractive or not, or whether you appeal to the opposite sex, why go out of your way to look good, spend an hour doing your hair, buying the push up bra to make you look just right? And before everyone starts, I'm not saying every female desires the attention of men if they are not wearing hijab or they do these things, my point is, Muslim women are encouraged not to desire that attention from men, and the easiest way to do that, is to cover yourself.

Fwiw I think the dressing in black came from the Saudi's. If you see other Islamic cultures women tend to dress in very bright colours with lovely fabrics, such as the Sudanese, the Indian/Pakistani etc.

I've said it loads of times but men are supposed to cover up as well. That they choose not to is not my concern as I don't answer for their choices, only for my own.

My daughter wears a headscarf at times, she is 4, it gets her some horrid looks and much tutting. Thankfully she is too young to notice or care

am curious as to whether you think women in Islamic countries where covering up is mandatory should be free to choose. As far as I'm aware it's not mandatory in Turkey, Malaysia, Egypt, Lebanon, in the past Iran, Afghanistan where the majority is Muslim, I assume also Jordan as you see Queen Rania uncovered at times. Would be interesting to know which countries require it and if so if that was always the case. Anyone know?

Lovecat - I mentioned that in Turkey, women are forced to removed their hijab at the entrance to universities and other government buildings.

Cote argued that this was essential for Turkey to remain a secular state. Then someone asked her about Ataturk and she gave the opinon that the state he founded was liberal for all, to which I countered with no, not really, because I do not feel that banning headscarves and languages is particularly liberal.

IMO (and I accept that others disagree),you can't paint Turkey as place of equality and not expect the fact that some Turks are more equal then others to be mentioned. It's called intersectionality.

Did you read the link I pasted? It might explain why tone arguments are pretty offensive.

Scanty - I'm pretty sure that all those here, including me, who've spoken against a burka ban, have also spoken against forced covering. To me they are equally disgusting.

To your other question, AFAIK only Iran and Saudi & Afghanistan have enforced dress codes, though it's possible that parts of other countries do too. Most Muslim majority countries don't and you will see a wide variety of dress there.