Yasmin Alibhai-Brown on the burka

[mrsruffallo]

Have to say I agree with her. She makes an eloquent case against the burka, and the dilemma facing liberals in Europe on this issue.

Mask-wearing and females being bare-breasted (outside of a beach or glam mags) are about the last two taboos in Western dress culture. You don't need legislation to say 'ladies, don't walk down the street with no top on'... it's pretty much a given that it would be socially unacceptable so no-one does it. Equally, I don't think we need legislation on mask-wearing.

However, women who choose to do so, (or who are pressured into doing so) should understand that they are crossing a cultural line.... They are inadvertently presenting themselves as secretive and possibly sinister. And that, ironically, they are going to get stared at more for hiding their face than if they wore a headscarf. I just wonder do they realise that?

Wedding veils and funeral veils fall into the category of 'symbolic fancy-dress costume'... they are articles of clothing worn on very specific occasions. The bride casts off her veil during the service as a symbolic gesture ... and never wears it again. The widow wears the black veil as a symbolic gesture of mourning.... and never wears it again either.

It's not the same context at all.

So if the objective is (as I understand it) not to draw attention to your appearance, why wear something that acheives exactly that? Hijabs are not contentious... if you check out mediaeval paintings you'll find western women have worn head-coverings for centuries. Headscarves were the epitome of fifties glamour... Hepburn, Taylor, Kelly. But at no time have they ever worn masks.

Agree with Naomi Wolf's point that for many women it is about a quite different notion of the difference between public and private behaviour than the one we have become used to in the west.

Chil a lot of women where I live wear the burka. It's just not that unusual any more. It would never occur to me to regard them as "secretive and possibly sinister". If I did I would be spending every morning at the school gates in a state of high anxiety .

it's worn so as not to draw sexual attention to a niqaabi woman chil.
as Allah says, "..and tell the believing women to not display their adornments, except that which is apparent from it..."
If a believing woman covers her body including her elbows, backs of the knees, ankles an other 'lesser parts' of her body, out of modesty and an act of worship for Allah, then the the face is more of a reason to cover as it the face that is more beautiful to look at than the feet or the ears etc.
" O Prophet! Tell the believing women to cast their jalaabeeb upon themselves. That will be better, that they should be known as free, modest women, so as not to be bothered (in a sexual manner).."

The Prophet said, " The eyes commit zinaa (fornication)ad their zinaa is looking...the heart ardently desires and awaits, and the privte parts either confirm it, or deny it"

There are plenty more evidences from Quraan and sunnah, but have no time to write up.

Although I personally do not accept the Niqab, I still believe it is a matter of choice for Muslim women. We assume women are made to wear it most of the time but this is not always the case.Ok, so ban the Niqab and then what? Do we expect all forms of abuse targetting Muslim women to disappear! wow as if by magic! The instances of abuse agianst women both Muslim and other goes deeper and way beyong the garments they wear.
Many Muslim women actually choose to wear the face cover some believeing it to be obligatory , some as a devout practice of piety.
I agree with those who say give them a voice and work more on social reform amongst Muslim women living in western society rather than do the easy thing of banning the Niqab.

But they don't just focus on the niqab and ignore all other problems do they?
Being confronted by women wearing the niqab and whether or not this has a place in western society is an important discussion and one which strikes to the core of the feminist movement.
Surely as a convert who was originally raised in english culture(please correct me if I am wrong)you understand the issue, Riven?

Personally, I don't like my daughter seeing women covered up. I don't even like explaining the reasons why (because men might fancy them )I find it uncomfortable putting such outdated notions in her head.

I strongly disagree with many things in that article. I'm not sure about the "millions of us" against the niqab, implying that there are millions of Muslim women against the niqab. I don't think there is any evidence of that.

What it is though is just her opinion, I don't think it carries any weight simply because she is a Muslim because she doesn't have any insight into wearing the niqab and it seems like a completely alien culture to her. Is she a Muslim by the way? I'm not talking about being born to Muslim parents but making a conscious decision to be a Muslim.

Oh and as to the incident of her bigottedheroic friend refusing to be served by the niqabi woman, I think YAB deserves a slap for defending her.

Message withdrawn

In most muslim arab or asian countries, the veil is not compulsory. Many wear it by choice,but that choice is wether you accept it or not "de facto" dictated by necessity. These women have to wear it to be able to emancipate from their menfolk and go out to study and work.
Without it, many would not have the freedom of choice.
The worse of two evils, that much I can accept.

In Europe, there is a tradition of unconditional freedom. Women are guaranteed the right to study and work regardless.
I understand that in a free "democratic" environment, a women should be able to exercise her right to wear a full veil. But honestly,how many grown up mature women make that informed choice for every young girl who can't go out and educate herself about her options?

Why should we accept such blatant symbolism of subjugation? How can these girls exercise a choice?
They can't opt out at will. Not unless they cut all ties with their families. Isn't that too high a price to pay for protecting the very few who have made an intelligent choice?

It is right that women should have the freedom to wear whatever they choose as long as it is genuine, independent choice. It would be wrong for a woman to wear a veil if she thought her family or society might look down on her for not doing so.

I know this is on a different slant but this is a recent article about the effect unveiled women have on the natural world - according to some influential men!

here

I do like YH-B on this sort of thing - marking so I will read later. She wrote something about the use of sharia law in civil cases in the UK that completely changed my mind about the issue.

"maybe its muslim women who wear the niqab who should be getting their voices heard. Yasmin Alihb-brown doesn't even wear hijab. "

@ Riven -- Are you trying to say she has less of a right to an opinion on the burqa than someone who is overtly 'religious'? Is she less of a Muslim because she doesn't cover her face, in your opinion?

It's not discrimination to forbid wearing a certain type of headwear. It's requesting integration, which is the opposite of discrimination. And such a law would not necessarily result in isolation. In fact, wearing any kind of full face covering is one thing that really does result in isolation for the wearer.

The burqa in particular is a community custom (and not traditionally a religious obligation at all) from a place where participatory democracy and personal freedom of even the most basic kind are anathema (Saudi Arabia). To appeal to these western values as the basis of tolerance of this "community fetish" (to quote the article) is truly ironic.