Yasmin Alibhai-Brown on the burka

[mrsruffallo]

Have to say I agree with her. She makes an eloquent case against the burka, and the dilemma facing liberals in Europe on this issue.

what if she is a french convert to islaam, with no muslim members in her family, and un-married? who they fine and imprison then? who could they then blame? her neighour?

It's disingenious to suggest that this issue is being discussed at the expense of more pressing social issues.
women from all walks of life have experienced the abuse you describe, not just muslim women.
And this isn't coming from the government, the article was written by a columnist who Iwrites about a different topic every week.
This isn't about islamaphobia, you can't just dismiss a whole subject as that. It's about the issues that living in a multicultural society throw at us.
I don't think you can dismiss western feminists who have an issue with the niqab by suggesting they should be worrying about other things first.

Niqabis segregate themselves from society by wearing these garments though.
And would the niqabis be interested in listening why so many of us find it uncomfortable?
Why is the onus on us to accept it?

Riven, they are already in prison so this is not like their condition will be worse.
What can be achieved though is preventing more fathers/brothers/husbands from coercing their women into wearing the niqab when the headscarf can achieve the same purpose of protecting their modesty.
Laws often are meant as a strong deterrent. This is what the underlying idea is. And its a bloody good one.

There you go again, anyone who disagrees with you is islamaphobic or intolerant. It's always the same on these threads

Lots of people on here thank you for your insights into the muslim religion, and
aappreciate your views as a niqabi

I just don't understand why it has to be defend defend defend with no leeway at all
I can't post on these thread anymore either.

Riven, we heard what you have to say but YOU refuse to acknowledge there is a much wider problem than protecting the right of 2000 women to wear what they like.

I know it's been touched upon, but what about headscarves, as there are many muslim women wear it? Does anyone find it offensive? Would/Have treat someone differently as a result of them wearing it?

I always find this one difficult, and I'm starting for the secure confident position that all religion is bullshit and much of it toxic woman-hating bullshit anyway.
However I'm not happy with the idea of a state-imposed ban on any style of dress - or undress (IMO people should be allowed to walk around starkers if they want to.)
I support people's right to believe superstitious rubbish and act according to whatever ludicrous taboos they feel their imaginary friends require as long as their actions do not impinge too much on other people - where the niquab, burka etc become very problematic is when the wearing of them is enforced with physical violence - as yet, women are not often assaulted or imprisoned for not wearing high heels, miniskirts and lipstick. (I am aware that there have been some street attacks on Muslim women eg tearing off their veils, which is of course utterly unacceptable but this is random arseholery and not state-sanctioned).
I would prefer an outreach/education campaign to a ban: trying to get across to Muslim women that they don't have to wear more veiling than they, personally, feel comfortable with and that the men in their lives do NOT have the right to force them into covering up and imprison or beat them if they refuse to do so. And such a campaign would have to be run and fronted almost entirely by liberal Muslim women to work.

SGD you have a very valid point but outreach programmes will not work. They'll be accused of trying to curb the faith / corrupt the innocent minds of the women they are trying to reach out to.
You have to reach out to the men. I can't see how liberal muslim women could do that.
They'd be met with contempt as would not be considered as "muslim".
Muslim men are not open to discussion.

Lets not forget there is a sociology behind this. For most of these muslim men living in inner cities, islam is a political tool. The only way to exist and be accounted for.

Amani (love the name) a headscarf is not an issue at all for me except for minors.

slim22 - I read your earlier post and I hope you don't mind me asking you to clarify but why wearing a headscarf bother you for minors?

Islam doesn't consider that children need to cover their bodies before puberty but I would still feel uncomfortable letting my son run around outside without at least t shirt and shorts on! Apart from anything else I want him to consider wearing clothes like his dad to be normal for him and not a huge change when he grows up so he only wears shorts that go below the knee aswell. I don't have any daughters so I don't know but I suspect I would feel the same about them.

My son likes wearing my headscarf (he's 2) and puts in on every opportunity he gets - I guess because he wants to copy mummy. Should I stop him? If I had a daughter who wanted to dress like Mummy should I stop her?

Sorry I appreciate thats going off topic a bit.

Slim22: THen perhaps it's the liberal muslim men who need to be encouraged to speak out, too. They can't all be woman-hating arseholes.

I agree that outreach programmes to women are not the way to achieve anything. There is such touchiness wrt any perceived 'attacks' on Islam (not that wearing the niqab is actually a part of authentic Islamic religious expression anyway, but that's a whole nuther issue); the govt of Pakistan just in the last couple of days has banned Facebook and Youtube, and you have only to look at the fatwa thing (Salman Rushdie et al) and the outrage over the Danish and Swedish cartoonists, plus the murder of the Dutch filmmaker, to see that you are either "with them or against them" -- this is not a live and let live entity that the west is trying to grapple with.

The better approach, imo, is the French and Belgian banning plus fines. That is to say, a clear statement that western secular culture holds sway in the west (in France and Belgium anyway). The Swedish refusal to meet anyone half way on the issue of female genital mutilation shows that even groups where this was an entrenched practice can be persuaded to stop it by the threat of heavy fines and legal repercussions that include removal of children from the home and deportation of the parents.

It's not as if there is unanimous agreement among women (or even men) in the middle east that they love having to wear the niqab, not hold hands in public, etc. I think it gives heart to those who are concerned about individual freedom in the middle east to see the west stand up to fundamentalists in this way.

And about wearing mum's clothes for 'dress up' -- that's fine when a child is small. If a child of 8 or 9 wanted to do the same, then I would worry that he or she hadn't developed emotionally past the childhood phase when mum and dad are the center of a child's world. There's a difference between a young child clopping around in mummy's shoes and a child of 9 'deciding' to dress just like mum.

Why did we never see the niqab in this country until a few years ago?

There was a settled muslim population in many towns and cities leading, presumably, islamic lives yet they never donned a niqab.

Were they practising a mis-guided,inferior brand of islam?