so how do you sleep at night?

[Heathcliffscathy]

Since we invaded Iraq:

24,865 iraqi civilians have been killed. That's mothers, daughters, sons and fathers. And it's almost 0.1 percent of the entire population.

10% were under 18 years old

And 'the coalition' killed 9270 of them.

I can't sleep at night cause of this. I live in London and love London and hate what happened last week but it makes it look pathetic in comparison doesn't it?

I CAN'T sleep at night because of this. There are plenty of atrocities happening around the world as I write. But this one is done in my name. Even though I marched and even though I didn't vote Labour (because of this issue primarily), this is done in my name because I am British and proud of it.

The Americans and the British are saying that it's not their job to count up civilian deaths. What does that say to the Muslim populations of the world given how painstakingly and rightly so they have been counting our dead in London this last week? And Mr Blair dares to say that this atrocity, whereby 4 British kids blew themselves up to kill people has nothing to do with Iraq?

How do you sleep? How can we stop this? How dare we debate Muslims' attitudes to us when we are doing this to them?

happydaddy.....what are you on about? wheres the preaching you talk about?

your post seems to be a massive over reaction ...

Nutcracker - if you don't like being preached at - what are you doing on MN there are LOTS of threads on this site on an almost daily basis where people could feel they were being 'preached' at.........

Sophable, these deaths are clearly too many, but let remember, civilian deaths were happening under Saddam - lets not forget the mass graves found. And many of the civilian deaths you are including represent insurgent attacks on Iraqis working to rebuild government - so represent terrrorist attacks on those who seek to build a new system for their country. The deaths remain tragic, but not without meaning.

fgs nutty it is an expression, not meant to be taken literally.

sharlet- sorry, but you are very, and importantly wrong on this:

"the war (right or wrong) Was fought to the rules fo engagement set out in the Geneva Convention"

it was not....and is not.

numerous documented breaches - and the Bush administration has been quite clear in its expression of contempt for the conventions.

ok, i'll be polite about this: nutcracker, i'm really sorry you took me so literally. as i've said i was making a point in a way that i hoped would get attention, for the right reasons....i'm not saying if you sleep at night you're evil.. i am saying that if you choose to ignore what is happening in iraq whilst totally emphasising what happened to us in london last week then you are....errr....dubious...but i'm sure you don't subscribe to that.

I apologise for the rudeness of my first post. I am tired and don't like being preached to, as if I know nothing about the world.

Sophable, I'm very sorry.
CD, I'm very sorry.
Everyone, I'm very sorry.

Quite happydaddy, you derived an implication that no-one else had up to that point and waded in. Which is why, although as you say you didn't aim it at me, I felt compelled to intervene.

If you re read it again you will see that the implication is simply not there

HD - in case you've forgotten your first comment on this subject was

"sophable, who the f**k are you to preach to us? What makes you so blameless and us at fault? How dare you assume that none are as bothered or aware as you."

Now you don't honestly believe that a reponse like that was going to get a 'nice' reply did you????

BUT NO-ONE WAS PREACHING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

ladymuck if what you're saying is that there were lots of deaths under saddam: agreed. but the difference is that we're meant to be benevolent saviours of a nation no????? so i totally don't understand your analogy esp given that the civilian death toll is greater now i suspect.

yes ladymuck, lets not forget those deaths under saddam...deaths which in the vast majority occurred when saddam was our glorious leaders bosom pal...deaths perpetrated with guns and chemicals we - well mainly our fabulous pals in washington- sold to him.

Sorry HD - posts crossed

Haven't I just apologised? Isn't that good enough?

posts crossed

HD. accepted. but what was it that got your back up so much? or do you genuinely have some problem with me/the way i post?

I slept very well last night thank-you but am angry. Think this thread has lost its priciple meaning. Yes Snafu I think you do but when you have been brainwashed like I nearly was until I was told so, you can do things you wouldn't normally do. A slightly weaker personality could easily do this and have feeliong of it being wrong.

As an Englishman who voted Labour, I was troubled by the legality and motive for war. I am still troubled by the methods and that it's carrying on. I am glad that Mr Blair has drawn up a troop withdrawal plan and hasn't told the US.

The thing is that these terrorists have used Iraq as a recruitment drive, hung their hat on it and said "if you don't pull your troops out, we'll bomb more of you". The fact is that this is convenient for them, without the war they will find another reason to continue. The only way we can tackle this is to change our foreign policy and our support of the US. Let's not forget that the only reason France, Germany and Russia voted against the war was so that it didn't disrupt the oil deal they had struck with Saddam.

happy daddy - sorry is quite frankly nowhere near good enough.

we need acts of contrition....flowers....self flagellation.....for a start

surely the preaching thats gone on has come from Blair and co- desperate to shout down the blindingly obvious fact that if something has politicised, outraged, perverted and traumatised , ahem, dare i say young muslims in this country to the extent they would blow themselves-or anyone else- up then part of that something is their impotence in the face of tens of thousands of officially deemed irrelevant muslim deaths at the hands of an illegally invading yet allegedly liberating army ...a liberating army prepared, it transpires, to torture

HRW - Human Rights Watch estimate that 290,000 people Iraqi's "disappeared" (ie probably died) until Saddam's 24yr rule. That's approximately 12,000 a year.

Since the invasion of Iraq (2yrs ago) 24,000 have died - that's about 12,000 a year........

Yes not all of those were 'coallition' - however one could easily argue that the current suicide bombings would not have been occuring under Saddam's rule - so in some ways it's partly 'caused' by the coalliton........

they haven't hung their hat on it: that and palestine is the hat!!!

Oh that's fine then isn't it.

Sophable, I'm tired and took an implication from the post that I hope wasn't there. Your language was strong to provoke reaction but mine was one of indignation, at the feeling that I may be happy with this issue just because I don't worry about it every minute of everyday.

Just ignore me, everyone thinks I'm a troublemaker on here, anyway.

yes you voted labour say no more!

HD, if i've offended you before tho, as you've implied...i need (in a totally irrational way) to know....