so how do you sleep at night?

[Heathcliffscathy]

Since we invaded Iraq:

24,865 iraqi civilians have been killed. That's mothers, daughters, sons and fathers. And it's almost 0.1 percent of the entire population.

10% were under 18 years old

And 'the coalition' killed 9270 of them.

I can't sleep at night cause of this. I live in London and love London and hate what happened last week but it makes it look pathetic in comparison doesn't it?

I CAN'T sleep at night because of this. There are plenty of atrocities happening around the world as I write. But this one is done in my name. Even though I marched and even though I didn't vote Labour (because of this issue primarily), this is done in my name because I am British and proud of it.

The Americans and the British are saying that it's not their job to count up civilian deaths. What does that say to the Muslim populations of the world given how painstakingly and rightly so they have been counting our dead in London this last week? And Mr Blair dares to say that this atrocity, whereby 4 British kids blew themselves up to kill people has nothing to do with Iraq?

How do you sleep? How can we stop this? How dare we debate Muslims' attitudes to us when we are doing this to them?

smoking

Sophable said she cared about being sad for the men that chose to be suicide bombers.

Well I don't.

But nutty, it's not a case of having 'sympathy' in that sense, but don't you think we need to understand what motivates people to do this?

sophable I am glad to see that I am not the only one obviously deeply concerned with what has been done in Iraq. Although I sleep at night I do feel troubled with what is happening.

I am more worried about Iraq than what is happening in Africa simply because we are the cause of it. I can't stand Blair, never could stand Bush but they have both lied over this and even now Blair can't see the connection between what he did and what happened in London.

Regardless that the suicide bombers were murderers and no excuse is plausible that is.

To think that British soldiers can be tried with war crimes but Blair can't? I wonder how I explain this to dst when they are older, I wonder how far down this morally blind road we go before they are old enough to see Britain isn't that great.

death rate due to violence (smart bombing, criminals, and suicide bombs) in Iraq pre invasion: hard to say exactly but considerably less than 35 per day i would suggest.

They had bought return tickets and paid for their parking at Luton. Also, the bomber on the bus seemed "agitated" just before the bomb went off and wasn't in a typical "suicide bomber" position on the bus (bottom deck by the double doors in the middle is apparently the traditional place for maximum carnage and loss of life}. He was more in a "let's regroup and work out what to do next" position.

And, the overwhelming factor - the three bombs went off within 30 seconds of each other, which would be nigh on impossible for suicide bombers - it's not just a matter of "synchronise watches, then press the bang button dead on 8.50" - there's more working up to a frenzy than that.

Yes Snafu but only to stop it happening again.

If you believe that grown adults can't be brain washed - then I wonder what you make of the many cults around the world which people (often bright, intelligent ones) are drawn unwittingly into and find themselves unable/unwanting to get out?

you may as well buy a return it's usually only a couple of quid more and on the offchance that you don't blow yourself up it is quite a saving

nutcracker, I don't think anyone's saying 'poor blokes' about the bombers, just let's understand what drives people to do this because it might help us stop it another time.

nutcracker: its only when we start caring about what makes people blow themselves up that we stand the faintest chance of stopping them doing so.

lol at cd

cd (can I snurk on this thread?)

I didn't know that about the return tickets, hunker.

hunkermunker - I think they thought the bus bomb was meant for else where. The idea, I rea, was for all 4 bombs to be on the underground - north, east, south and west. But there was a line closure meaning the 4th bomber could not go where planned. He possibly just caught the first busy bus passing. And having not planned for the bus, he just stood where he could get a place???

We - the British People - are not doing anything to Muslims. There have been (IMO) ill advised things done in our name. I too was against the war and voted against the Government mainly on this issue. I marched in the Anti-war march, although my husband serves in the armed forces, and I do not accept that this war was waged on my behalf.

You are wrong that the bombers were children. They were adults who made an adult descision to target the innocent - as Al Quaeda's leader Bin Laden said - why go after the tiger when there are so many sheep. You are also wrong that the bombings here equate with the tragic civilian and non-combatant deaths that have taken place in Iraq. Al Quaeda are not an organisation who have delcared a war on a particular country and are fighting that war to the rules of engagement set down in the Geneva Convention. They are fighting a guerrilla war of terrorism, and instead of targeting military installations and personnel they are targeting quite deliberately the innocent, the normal man on the street. The civilian deaths in Iraq have in the main part been the victims of stray bombs, accidents, used as human shields and more concerningly been targeted by thier own people in the Insurgency. None of this makes Britain and the US's actions in Iraq right IMO but it is very different to an indiscriminate terrorist attack in a highly populated area.

I sleep at night because I know I am not responsible for the actions of Mr Blair and Mr Bush. I have not voted for them and I will not be stained by thier dirty war. I have fought and will continue to fight that we should not have been there.

The reasons for Al Quaeda's attacks on the war began becasue of the US's prescence and political actions in relation to his homeland Saudi Arabia, and becasue the US withdrew his funding. Many other reasons have since been used to draw good Muslims into this terrorist regime - The situation in Palestine, The existence of Israel, then after 9/11 the US's war on Terror and the war in Afghanistan and now the war in Iraq. Don't be naive enough to believe that the war in Iraq is anything more than a tool for them to recruit more to thier cause. Thier raison d'etre is far more loose than that. They are fuelled on hate, hatred of westernisation. Hatred of this way of life. No matter what reaction we had had to 9/11 I am sure we would still have landed at these 7/7 attacks. They have no demands but that we suffer.

We - you and I - are not doing anything to the Muslims. if anything we can try to do something about making this country more inclusive and start making them feel a part of British life but they need to work with us. Make sure the governement are aware of you opinions, and don't vote for them . If you can't sleep at night try doing something about it. Stop trying to blame us and start doing something about it. As a citzen of the UK there is really nothing else you can do unless you are a policy maker in the government.

Just stop shouting me and trying to blame me for the ills of the world, after all by doing that you are simply saying the bombers were right and I don't think you are on thier side....

Emma x

um, actually, I do think poor blokes. And their poor families. SOMETHING MADE THEM DO THIS. OK it may have been someone else, they may have been brainwashed by someone further up the line. BUT we have to accept that a lot of Muslims, while not condoning the bombings, are angry about what is being perpetrated against them and theirs by us and ours. So it only takes a few shit stirrers to really whoop it up into a bombing campaign if normal, moderate people are pissed off ffs.

Hula, the Northern line was apparently not closed until after the bombs went off.

They were saying it definitely couldn't have been suicide bombers initially because of the timings.

sorry hunkermunker-not sure your evidence stacks up

why can't they have bombs with timers set on them?

and they didn't all go off within 30 secs anyway.

and you know what...i rather trust the police to take a view on this rather than mentalconspiracytheory.com

put it this way I nearly got converted into trying to get people into a church to become Christians because these Christians said this was the way of God and if you didn't read the bible after finding Jesus you would go to hell. I knew better and stopped going to these cell meetings but not eveyone is so sceptical. Now do you understand. There are a huge range of people in this world. There are those who are competitive and want to always be perfect in things they do and so would go along with so as not to let anyone down (sad but true).this could well be the mentality of the suicide bombers, very clever but very conforming and hence do what they do regardless to meet high expectations. Then there is the opposite end of the spectrum where they question everything and wouldn't even be there. I guess most people are in the middle, some nearer the conforming area and so they do anything to please and sadly get themselves blown up in the process. I do not understand why but understand that thye can be influenced.

sophable, who the f**k are you to preach to us? What makes you so blameless and us at fault? How dare you assume that none are as bothered or aware as you.

errr, sharklet, sorry but UN resolutions were broken to go into Iraq were they not?

Oh f**k off happydaddy get off yer box. She was starting a thread not having a go at you you dickhead

I think you need a bit more than just a desire to conform to go ahead and blow yourself up on a bus, lav

toodarnhot, not just my theory - the police have been saying this as well.

As for mentalconspiracytheory.com - nicely rude, thanks.

Ah, the article I read must have been wrong - so many were at first. TBH I have kept that up to date with it all since, I don't normally have newspapers in and avoid the news so DD doesn't see it.