so how do you sleep at night?

[Heathcliffscathy]

Since we invaded Iraq:

24,865 iraqi civilians have been killed. That's mothers, daughters, sons and fathers. And it's almost 0.1 percent of the entire population.

10% were under 18 years old

And 'the coalition' killed 9270 of them.

I can't sleep at night cause of this. I live in London and love London and hate what happened last week but it makes it look pathetic in comparison doesn't it?

I CAN'T sleep at night because of this. There are plenty of atrocities happening around the world as I write. But this one is done in my name. Even though I marched and even though I didn't vote Labour (because of this issue primarily), this is done in my name because I am British and proud of it.

The Americans and the British are saying that it's not their job to count up civilian deaths. What does that say to the Muslim populations of the world given how painstakingly and rightly so they have been counting our dead in London this last week? And Mr Blair dares to say that this atrocity, whereby 4 British kids blew themselves up to kill people has nothing to do with Iraq?

How do you sleep? How can we stop this? How dare we debate Muslims' attitudes to us when we are doing this to them?

toodarnhot, as you are so happy to quote. Where did I say that I supported the war in Iraq? Hmmm? Where? Nowhere, that's where. But as I voted Labour I am obviously the anti-christ in your eyes.

to be fair HD i am glad you accept that Iraq was a part of what has motivated the first suicide bombers in western europe.

Your approval means so much, thank you.

As I said, Iraq has played into the bomber's hands. Let's not get too bogged down in it being the be all and end all of Al-Qaeda (spelling).

I wasn't taking the mickey when I asked about your knowledge. You do seem very knowledgable and I was genuinely curious as to whether this was something you dealt with during a working day or anything.

CD, was that aimed at my head?

toodarnhot, as I have done so much damage by voting Labour. Can you tell me who I should vote for, so I don't make the same mistake again?

" don't believe that there are only two positions but you utterly refuted the french/german/russian argument in favour of their opposition to WMD. Your argument is just as flawed as mine, at least have the decency to admit that.
"

'i utterly refuted' an argument that holds no water and makes zero sense....countries who were all for the war were as invested in oil dealings with saddam as ones who did not...its a feeble attempt to smear the opponents to the war. it failed. thats why there was no UN resolution.

for someone who 'opposed' the war you seem remarkably keen to argue that opponents of the war only did so out of self interest. odd.....

but hey- if there had been no WMD, and there had been no links to al qaeda, as Bush and your man Tony argued, then the case for the war really would look bad...especially if the liberating forces turned out to be torturing the people they came to liberate, right?

errrr...hang on.

but i do accept that you are entirely within your rights to ignore the illegal, dishonest and immoral actions of the Blair government and vote for them on the strentgh of their wondrous domestic policies....

what tipped the balance? PFI in the national health , or the stunning improvements in education? no....wait...i know- its ID cards right?

no HD, mine

Oh Cd, you're back. Glad your aim isn't so good. Mumsnet wouldn't be nearly as much fun without you.

You mean that the US/UK won't have control over Saddam's oil now, then? Surely that can't have been why the other knights in Euro armour didn't sign up. Russia is bothered by regime change and torture is it? Tell that to the Chechens.

I oppose our involvement but don't think that the big three who opposed did it out of moral concern for the Iraq people. More that they don't like the US/UK positions. Or they don't want us taking away their pipelines.

I admit it, the only reason I voted Labour was because I like Tony's cheeky smile and quick wit. I'm sorry my opinion differs from yours, it's called freedom of thought.

Please tell me who I should vote for next time, as I've clearly made such a huge mistake.

'And the US occupying forces(and UK don't forget) do fight under the LOAC (laws of armed combat) and are governed by the Geneva Convention. '
My statement says that the US are governed by both LOAC and the Geneva Convention not that LOAC is governed by the Geneva Convention whihc it is not it is a separate entity. I am sorry if my use of grammar made this unclear.

"Not sure if you saw the photos from abu ghraib but trust me, they contravene Geneva conventions on a number of fronts. "

I did see the photos from abu ghraib and I agree they very much contravene Geneva Conventions - however these were crimes which have been tried as such contraventions and thier actions are not condonded by either the US or UK Govs.

you seem to be taking US pentagon press statements as some kind of statement of fact. remember these were the people who brought us the Jessica Lynch story . The Red Cross, HRW and numerous independent - yes, not embedded journalists- have documented that what you say abolut Fallujah is...how can i put this politely...utter nonsense

I am not taking information from statements from the US Pentagon. Sorry I was taking information from a serving US military member who I happen to be married to who has copies of some of the flyers sent. I don't know the ins and outs of the bombings on fallujah but I do know that these flyers are required and are sent before attacks - because my husband used to pack them into planes.

"do you work for Rumsfelds press office?" Don't be ridiculous.... I'd know a lot more and make a lot less mistakes in my info if I did!

What I said was that to me the suggestion I got from the orginal post comparing the military's actions in Iraq to the Bombers Actions in London seemed to infer that the two were equal - in fact that the military's actions in Iraq were carried out in a worse manner. I was simply pointing out the difference and why the bombers are classified as terrorists not lawful combatants.

Honestly yes I do believe that attacks on hospitals if stated as so are accidents. Terrible ones at that. I do not believe that either UK or US forces deliberately destroy civilian lives. If the hospitals were attacked deliberately then it would be because the insurgents had used it as a military installation and under the LOAC it gives the right to attack such an installation. Insurgents would have been asked to with draw and told the consequesnces (which I do not support) only then would an attack take place. They are not all mad gung ho shoot em up cowboys ready to kill a few iraqis just for a laugh and sod it if they're civilian who cares. How do I know this - because I know many of them who served and still serve there. I can tell you many of them are as hoffified as we are at the war, why it came about and worry how it can end. Many of them see it as the modern day Vietnam - thats certainly how my DH sees it and a good many of his colleagues.

". Russia is bothered by regime change and torture is it? Tell that to the Chechens. "

you what?

who said they opposed the war because they were opposed to torture. they opposed US foreign policy...they argued- correctly- it was against international law, and could welll provoke more terrorism.

seems they were right on both counts

"I oppose our involvement but don't think that the big three who opposed did it out of moral concern for the Iraq people. More that they don't like the US/UK positions. Or they don't want us taking away their pipelines. "

see above. never said they did.

and how dare they oppose us 'taking away their pipelines'? they couldn't have more than one motive either could they?

"I admit it, the only reason I voted Labour was because I like Tony's cheeky smile and quick wit. I'm sorry my opinion differs from yours, it's called freedom of thought."

like i say you're entitled to viote for whoever you want and if for you a cheeky smile weighs in as more important than morality and the rule of international law that is of course entirely your choice

dare i suggest you are feeling some regret about how you cast your vote?

And with that I shall retire to bed. Its interesting to hear you opinion toodarnhot - but I shan't be able to reply until after some beauty sleep so please don't think me rude.

Good night all

Emma x

toodarnhot, i don't regret voting Labour one bit. There are things I agree with and things that I don't. The same can be said for all of the other parties policies.

I'm dying to know who I should have voted for, though.

I'm too tired to try to keep up with your answers as they change from post to post, forgive me.

HD hope you have your yellow pages to hand

Wow, very heavy thread. I do find it hard to sleep at night when I think about what is going on in our world. I was and am against the war although am not sure if pulling out our troops would achieve anything more than ensuring Iraq falls into a long civil war. My only hope is that the UN can come in and try to sort out the mess and give the Iraqi people some sort of peace & stable government.

In terms of terrorism, I think one answer is to ensure a fairer world, yes am aware this is very rose tinted view. We need to ensure fairer distribution of wealth, fairer trade, people in the developing world need to watch their friends and families enjoy a good standard of living instead of watching death, poverty and starvation. Only then will people not think the west is exploiting them etc. On the same vein, the UN, World bank etc also need to have more equal distribution of power. No one country should be able to have their way at the expense of everyone else. And of course a more thoughtful foreign policy (not just the west but all countries).

Had some other points, but my pregnant brain has forgotten them!

CD, I have my voting card. Will that do?

couldn't agree more yingers.

has this thing kicked off yet - c'mon suzywong - your too damned slow.

got to say - it did come accross as a bit of a challenge "How do you sleep? How can we stop this?" etc sophable. there seemed to be a kind of - be as passionate as me - or defend yourself - thing going on.

that was imo - peace - i love you will you marry me soph?

happy daddy i think may have taken this as a challenge and replied tactlessly as did CD you both very naughty.

i sleep at night becuase i am tired. there are many problems in the world. tonight i saw how my nan might die at the inadequacies of the NHS. i see the failings of the educational system through my children, i watched as children died of hunger last night on the telly. i see peoples houses being torn down by a madman - and i don't even flinch anymore when i hear people including out own troops have been killed in iraq.
i am not big enough to take on these problems. i can just about cope with my life most days. does this mean i don't care? i like to think not. i think i am powerless to change any of these things. if ( as i did i exclaim smugly) vote for another party - will they be much more radically different? i have my doubts.

i dont understand the war in iraq - what i glean is that we have to be friends with america cos they ar the big cheese and this would have a negative effect on the british economy.

i didn't say that was right - i just think its easy to make big proclamations about how bad things are whilst even indirectly we are all probably benefiting from weapons technology and technology in general,trade agreements etc. i am not an economist. and so it would be very enlightening if someone with a relevent economic background could interject. in a language i understand - as thats would be helpful

ta v. much
peace out

yingers, couldn't you have posted that at the start and saved all this arguing?

was in the bath reading harry potter!

I do sleep at night.

That's because if I allow myself to think..really think about it all: the almighty disaster that was the invasion of Iraq; The London bombings; Israel/Palestine and how many people have died there; North Korea; a child dying every three seconds in Africa; what happened in Rwanda; Northern Ireland; 9/11; the list goes on and on and on and that's before we even get started on 'domestic' stuff - how many children and women are being horribly abused, how many children in Britain are living below the poverty line and we a so called civilized country...

I swear, my head would explode. I couldn't sleep if I allowed myself to dwell on the amount of inhumanity, hatred and suffering that is going on in the world. That doesn't mean I don't care. I just can't do it. So I live in my little world, I sweat the small stuff, I read the newspapers and I grieve in my own insignificant way for the things that are happening...but I do sleep at night. Would it make a difference if I didn't?

custardo, i feel like you do a lot of the time, like it's just too big and i've brought ds into a shit world, that is getting shittier by the second.

it was a challenge. i was hoping to wake people out of apathy or rouse those that are as distraught as i am. it wasn't literal. i do sometimes sleep. but i also feel an unease, a genuine anguish somtimes at what is happening over there even tho the vast majority of us knew at the time that it would be like this.

isn't heated discussion on intelligent boards like MN a way of doing something?