so how do you sleep at night?

[Heathcliffscathy]

Since we invaded Iraq:

24,865 iraqi civilians have been killed. That's mothers, daughters, sons and fathers. And it's almost 0.1 percent of the entire population.

10% were under 18 years old

And 'the coalition' killed 9270 of them.

I can't sleep at night cause of this. I live in London and love London and hate what happened last week but it makes it look pathetic in comparison doesn't it?

I CAN'T sleep at night because of this. There are plenty of atrocities happening around the world as I write. But this one is done in my name. Even though I marched and even though I didn't vote Labour (because of this issue primarily), this is done in my name because I am British and proud of it.

The Americans and the British are saying that it's not their job to count up civilian deaths. What does that say to the Muslim populations of the world given how painstakingly and rightly so they have been counting our dead in London this last week? And Mr Blair dares to say that this atrocity, whereby 4 British kids blew themselves up to kill people has nothing to do with Iraq?

How do you sleep? How can we stop this? How dare we debate Muslims' attitudes to us when we are doing this to them?

One thing that does interest me. I read a book written by a Times columnist, a Blair critic, who was allowed unhindered access to Blair everyday for the month leading upto the war. He was in all of the meetings and private moments with Blair. He concluded that although he had many misgivings about Mr Blair, he couldn't help but notice just how personally affected Blair was by the decisions he was making. He knew he was sending young people to their deaths and that weighed very heavily on his mind.
No matter which party you work for, or who you are answerable to, Blair's job is one that I wouldn't like to do.

poor tony.

I should jolly well hope so too!

Imagine if he didn't care how appalling would that be? I know he is a liar but didn't have him down as totally heartless too!

sharklet:

"I did see the photos from abu ghraib and I agree they very much contravene Geneva Conventions - however these were crimes which have been tried as such contraventions and thier actions are not condonded by either the US or UK Govs. "

wrong i'm afraid: some of the practices at abu ghraib were actually ordered by General Sanchez when he was the USA's most senior officer in Iraq. He was forced to admit this (and implicit in the admission that he had lied to congress about these orders) when the written orders themselves came to light earlier this year.

meanwhile Bush's attorney general , a lovely man called Gonzales, believes that the geneva conventions clauses on torture are "quaint". Nice.

No, I'm sorry- the Bush admin absolutely clearly has condoned torture...that iss now beyond doubt. the argument has moved on to whether a "little torture" is ok ...not whether it happened and was ordered.

As for Faallujah you seem to think that because the US military say they did something they did it....the pentagon has a proven track record of bare faced lies in Iraq (and elsewhere) so I'm afraid I don't think that correct procedure was observed. the unfortunate habit the US has had of shooting non-embedded media since the invasion doesn't help persuade me that its all 'accidental'. Inconvenient having people around filming while one firebombs civilians, no?

and you seem to think because there are- as i'm sure there are- a good many US soldiers who act with compassion and caution, that there are not others who, to cite an example which happened to be captured on film , would shoot a severely wounded man dead in cold blood. and many others doing their duty- following illegal orders in clear breach of the geneva convention and any putative LOAC/

It seems to me the LOAC in Iraq are either at fault or not being observed properly if over 9000 civilians have been killed by the US military and less than 3000 killed by insurgents.

""do you work for Rumsfelds press office?" Don't be ridiculous.... I'd know a lot more and make a lot less mistakes in my info if I did!"

really...? seems incredible to me that Rumsfled still has a job when the invasion and occupation have been planned and executed so stunningly incompetently. and i blame that on those in command, btw, not the men on the ground.

I didn't mean it like that. I meant that he really thought that his decision was the right thing to do. Would you like to be in that position? I wouldn't.

And the conservatives have said that they would have gone to war, too.

OMG are you seriously implying that we would vote TORY???!!?!?!?!?!?

HD, I don't think he thought that his decision was the right one in any kind of moral right way. i think he felt it was the only politically expedient one, and that is why i despise him totally. he has no spine. and no motive other than to keep power. and make sure he does well on the amercian lecture circuit.

(sorry obv some would but I know for a fact that many wouldn't)

CD, who does that leave? The Lib-Dems? Don't make me laugh.

sophable, do any politicians have any other motive apart from keeping power?

I voted LIbdem. as well as the being the only party that was against the war, they are the only party that is on an electoral reform ticket. tony promised that in '97. isn't politically expedient to deliver now tho is it?

electoral reform would mean that my vote would actually count for something.

Like a baby and I am off now, good night all.

am off to bed now but just wanted to say one last thing. The fact so many of us are bothered enough to comment on this thread, were bothered enough to take part in live8, 2 minutes silence etc shows that the majority of us give a sh7t! The daily routine of life does often mean we don't think about these issues all the time but I still have a lot of hope for our world. The friends in my life represent a whole range of backgrounds and beliefs, my children are/will be mixed race/faith & I know many children who are - 20 years ago this would not have been true!!!!

Sorry if this rant is a bit sickly sweet, just felt I should inject some positivity to this thread! So sleep well all!

what's so laughable HD?

yingers on good nights i think the same as you do.

Happy daddy- sorry you think my answers keep changing...i thought it was pretty clear and consistent that i think you should be ashamed of yourself for voting for Blair.

as for who you should vote for its not my place to tell you- but just as you are entitled to vote for a liar who took us into an illegal and counter productive war, i am entitled to say i think you are wrong to have done so.

so far i'm not sure you've really answered why it is that- if you opposed the war- you felt you needed to vote for blair...or was it just because you couldn't vote for anyone else?

or did you really oppose the war? much of what you've said tonight would tend to make me think that two years ago you were in favour...but now as its become ever more apparent what a shambles it is in Iraq you're not so happy to stand by that support...

but hey...just my theorising.

yingers, again you have said the perfect thing.

sophable, sorry I shouldn't laugh at your opinions. They are as valid as mine. It could be argued that the Lib-Dems can promise lots as they know they won't actually be elected.

baaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh

whereas Blair can promise lots , get re-elected by credulous people prepared to turn a blind eye to dishonesty and the blind refusal of his government to take responsibility for any of their mistakes...and then...drum roll....fail to deliver anything that was promised.

yes- makes perfect sense.

hello toodarnhot, i wondered if you were still up.

I ask who you think I should vote for as you are so vocal in your disapproval of who I have voted for. I am genuinely curious.

I voted for Labour for a number of reasons. The economy, NHS waiting lists, improving state schools, etc. These things affect me and I believe that Labour is the party that will do the best. I don't expect you to agree, but you asked my reasons so there you are. Selfish? Yes but aren't we all? I still disagree with the war and would have voted against it in a referendum, which of course he wouldn't allow. Did you know me two years ago? Of course not, so please don't presume to know how I thought then.

toodarnhot, what convinces you that your party would deliver?

Happy Daddy of course i don't presume to know you now or two years ago..

but your support for many of the arguments (some since discredited) trotted out by apologists for Bush, Blair and their war in Iraq sits rather uncomfortably, IMHO, with your professed opposition to the war.

i'd be interested to hear on what grounds you oppose it , and would be glad to continue the discussion at a later date but now i must go to bed!

sleep well.

toodarnhot, can you recommend some topical reading material for me, please? I usually read the Independant and watch BBC News 24. I'm not going to pretend to be completely politically or topically aware and would love to learn more about these things. The truth would be nice to learn. This is a real request, by the way.

I should have been in bed two hours ago, I'll be up with a 14month old in 6 hours. Bah, I knew I should stay away from the interesting threads.

Take care, all.