so how do you sleep at night?

[Heathcliffscathy]

Since we invaded Iraq:

24,865 iraqi civilians have been killed. That's mothers, daughters, sons and fathers. And it's almost 0.1 percent of the entire population.

10% were under 18 years old

And 'the coalition' killed 9270 of them.

I can't sleep at night cause of this. I live in London and love London and hate what happened last week but it makes it look pathetic in comparison doesn't it?

I CAN'T sleep at night because of this. There are plenty of atrocities happening around the world as I write. But this one is done in my name. Even though I marched and even though I didn't vote Labour (because of this issue primarily), this is done in my name because I am British and proud of it.

The Americans and the British are saying that it's not their job to count up civilian deaths. What does that say to the Muslim populations of the world given how painstakingly and rightly so they have been counting our dead in London this last week? And Mr Blair dares to say that this atrocity, whereby 4 British kids blew themselves up to kill people has nothing to do with Iraq?

How do you sleep? How can we stop this? How dare we debate Muslims' attitudes to us when we are doing this to them?

ditto QoQ

Sophable, 24,865 iraqi civilians is shocking and awful I agree. And I disagreed with the war and signed petitions etc and am pi&&ed off that Blair is Bush's lapdog. But what do you think we should do about it? That's a genuine question.

could it have been that my thread title was a way of getting people to read the thread?????? maybe??????

Also find it interesting that only countries with oil get the removal by force of oppressive leader threatment by the West. Mugabe's still there...

I was also struck by the bodycount from Iraq. Very sobering to think of 25,000 dead - that's the equivalent of wiping out the town where I live.

It really demonstrates how the value we place on a life has a lot to do with proximity, doesn't it? Don't know if you remember the comedy show Drop the Dead Donkey set in a TV newsroom. The working title was something like 'dead Belgians don't count'. Because in terms of news values, people are more interested the closer something is to them.

I just wonder what on earth life must be like for all those mothers in Iraq, losing their children or fearing that they will lose them. I hope, desperately and selfishly, that I never have to find out what that is like.

HM. See my earlier post.

Think that there should be more press given to the idea that the bombers were also murdered - like I said earlier, I'm almost 100% sure they weren't expecting the bombs to go off when they did.

Might deter other would-be bombers...

that's it www... don't know...and that's why i feel so awful. i feel like i've done what i can...written to MP, marched against war, voted against labour (despite the fact that as a family we're doing pretty well under labour govt). maybe my thread is what i'm trying to do. trying to keep it all in our faces. it's just awful what's happening, but apart from newsnight, doesn't seem to be 'news' anymore.

edam, me too.

What the hell are you on about ?????

I don't need an excuse to say what i am thinking.

For what it's worth I don't have one bit of sympathy for the men that blew themselves up to kill innocent people.
No one made them do it.

Sorry - realise this isn't the thread for a hijack...

sophable, totally agree with you, but I don't know what the answer is.

i still don't understand what it is about my posts that offends you nutcracker?

what to do about it?

start by getting our troops out of Iraq and as someone said, stop poodling along behind the world's biggest, richest and most roguest of nations .

we may not agree with al qaeda's methods but what drives people into their arms is the occupation of muslim countries by troops from the US (and their feeble allies, natch)...so lets start by getting out of Iraq...after all we're not achieving anything..its getting worse not better. thats not giving into terrorism- its just admitting a terrible, disgraceful mistake.

Nutcracker, I think that there is a lot of evidence that suggests somebody did make them do it.

Whilst oil may be one motivator, I really don't think that it is simply a matter of Bush bowing to oil companies wishes (and Shell isn't a US company - it may have an odd structure, but head office is the Hague).

Sophable - what was the death rate of civilians before the invasion?

Oh right so someone took them there with the bombs and sat them on the trains did they ???

Funny that cos i didn't see anyone forcing them do it on the cctv pictures.

HM - agree with most of what you say but not sure about the bit about the bombers not knowing they "weren't coming back" - what makes you think that?

but Nutcracker they can be brainwashed it is possoble some people are vunerable and take on things because they are weaker and more impressionable than others. Masybe not you but some people can be taked into anything believe me.

toodarnhot, but the USA and UK are making a lot of MONEY rebuilding things they bombed...
what a lovely old moneymaking opp the whole thing's turned out to be! (did anyone see the feature in the guardian about it?)

Not what I meant NC... Somebody masterminded this and chose weak and feeble men to carry it out - brainwashing them in the process.

I am not absolving them from all blame, not at all. But I don't think it's as simple as "only their fault".

who is talking about sympathy for suicide bombers? i don't see a single post here suggesting we sympathise.

there has not been a single historical example of a terrorist campaign being defeated by the use of military means alone.

and their certainly has not been a case where a terrorist campaign has been successfully defeated by use of torture , murder and repression which seems to be US/british tactics currently in Iraq and elsewhere.

if its "sympathising" with them to try and understand why people blow themselves up (after all not something anyone would do lightly i rather suspect) then i'm fully sympathetic ...but its not of course. to suggest so would be rather silly.

as silly as arguing that what happened on july 7th had nothing to do with Iraq

But hang on they weren't young niave kids they were grown men with families, jobs etc.

Ok so they believe what ever they believe but I still don't have one bit of sympathy for them, why should I, and would any of you if your families had been injured or killed in the bombings ?

re Mugabe - apparently more people have died in 'armed conflict' under his rule than died during Smiths war against indepence! 500,000 of those in the 1980's and the world said nothing. His policies have reduced the average life expectancy from 58yrs (in 1995) to 35yrs in 2004.

Got that information from here - written by one of the few outspoken people still living in Zimbabwe........warning - some of it makes difficult reading if you're going to have a nosey.

wickedwater..

its even better than that...they're making money failing miserably to rebuild what they destroyed...