so how do you sleep at night?

[Heathcliffscathy]

Since we invaded Iraq:

24,865 iraqi civilians have been killed. That's mothers, daughters, sons and fathers. And it's almost 0.1 percent of the entire population.

10% were under 18 years old

And 'the coalition' killed 9270 of them.

I can't sleep at night cause of this. I live in London and love London and hate what happened last week but it makes it look pathetic in comparison doesn't it?

I CAN'T sleep at night because of this. There are plenty of atrocities happening around the world as I write. But this one is done in my name. Even though I marched and even though I didn't vote Labour (because of this issue primarily), this is done in my name because I am British and proud of it.

The Americans and the British are saying that it's not their job to count up civilian deaths. What does that say to the Muslim populations of the world given how painstakingly and rightly so they have been counting our dead in London this last week? And Mr Blair dares to say that this atrocity, whereby 4 British kids blew themselves up to kill people has nothing to do with Iraq?

How do you sleep? How can we stop this? How dare we debate Muslims' attitudes to us when we are doing this to them?

A post which I find offensive as she implies that I don't care about these things. How many other posts on here don't agree with her judgemental attitude?

Dickhead, eh? Nice one.

you said it!

emma/sharklet, i'm not shouting at you at all. i totally respect your post and previous ones i've read here.

the sleep at night thing was a call to arms/discussion yes?

you're right about a lot but i still think that the only way to stop al quaida is to stop their support amongst more mainstream muslims..and the only way to do that is to stop treating middle eastern states in a way we would never dream of doing a european state just because we have more military power and they have more oil? does that make sense?

Why am I a dickhead? Because I don't agree with sophable's implication that I'm not bothered about what happens in my name?

"All three bombs on the London Underground system actually exploded within seconds of each other, at 8:50 in the morning," he said. Nearly an hour later, at 9:47 a.m., a fourth explosion tore through a double-decker bus."

From cnn.com

No I think you will find she was saying

I can't sleep, how do you? She did not say you ARE sleeping ergo you don't care.

totally different

I actually agree with Happydaddy so I must be a dickhead too.

no because you didn't read what she actually said you just waded in

Well that's the way I took it, so did others on this thread but you didn't abuse them, did you?

I read it twice, actually. If you read mine, you'd also find that it wasn't even aimed at you.

You show me where the "assumption that none are as bothered or aware as you" is

tsk

HD - not everyone on this thread took it that way.........

but sharklet al qaeda do have at least very clear demand...withdraw western troops from muslim land....

and while i agree with a lot of your post i'm afraid you cgive the US occupying forces and their puppet government in Iraq more credit than they deserve.

torturing people to death is not very nice. whoever does it.

and these 'smart bombs' which 'accidentally' kill tens of thousands of civilians are targetted at the man in the street...the man in the street who might , possibly be an "insurgent"...or a "terrorist"

and i trust you are aware that the US forces used incendiary bombs to raise fallujah to the ground ....devices banned by the vast majority of countries. dead civilians in that scenario can hardly be described as 'accidental'.

'Inevitable' is more apt.

its not much comfort "not being as bad as the terrorists" to me even if it is to you...i rather think we need to have fractionally more exacting standards than that, particularly if we're going to set oursleves us as "civilized" "liberating" "democrats"

blimey happydaddy! i feel as if this thread is turning into a 'sophable has been pissing us off, so lets go for her' moment.

which judgements are you talking about exactly? where am i judging you????

do you understand the difference between posting in a way that gets people's attention and maybe makes them think and judging them..

actually f*ck it. if you don't give a toss about what is happening in iraq i probably do judge you yes...but you do don't you?

is this a nutcracker defense squad?

i didn't realise until tonight that she had a problem with me???

HD have you re-read your own first post on the subject??? Others may have disagree but they weren't so damn rude about it - especially not in their very first post on the subject!

But if they were masterminded like you say hm I don't understand why the bus bomb didn't go off at the same time as the others. Although I suppose this is a diversion from the real topic of the thread.

I do think a surprisingly large number of people dismiss the bombers as evil and thats it without actually thinking about what motivated them. Two of them had babies (and one on the way) - so I do think poor children. What sort of a beginning to life have they got?

I don't have a prob with you Sophable just some of the things you say, there is a difference.

if anyone takes the original post as a criticism methinks perhaps its striking a nerve....

al qaeda want the total distruction of western democracy and the enforced creation of an Islamic world (their own distorted version a la talaban). Iraq is an excuse. What they want is simply non negciable.

nutcracker in all seriousness: what???? what are these 'things'????

Bozza, I have another theory re that, but don't want to get accused of conspiracy-mongering again...

happydaddy

i repeat

You show me where the "assumption that none are as bothered or aware as you" is

Countess - I never said the the US/UK's war was legal. I don't feel it was - as I said I marched in the anit war marches. So I am not sure what you are getting at.

Perhaps you mean my comments of fighting under the rules of the Geneva Convention. IMO the war was illegal and therefore may well break the convention by its very existence (I don't know the charter to that extent - I am sure hubby could clarify if he were here.) However the war (right or wrong) Was fought to the rules fo engagement set out in the Geneva Convention. My point was that Al Quaeda's action and the actions of any loosely connected organisation is not fought under those laws - where non-combatants and civilians are in some way (not always effectively I agree) protected.

At no point did I try to justify the war or its existence.

Not striking a nerve no, i just don't like being preached at, and the assumption made that if I do sleep well at night, i must not care.

CD, the implication was what I took from the whole post.

QOQ I didn't say anyone did.

Anyway to answer the point - technically the bombings aren't a direct response to Iraq, they are more a response to Afghanistan. Iraq has inflamed extremists even more, though. Iraq isn't a Muslim country, Saddam created a secular society where money was the only God. Which is why he and Bin Laden hate each other and have never worked together. That maybe pedantic but to argue that if we hadn't gone to Iraq this wouldn't have happened is too simplistic. 9/11 was before Iraq and a result of western policies towards Oil rich countries, not the war in Iraq or our attitude towards Muslims.