What women want is an end to hectoring by feminists

[emkana]

do you agree?

Dittany I find you incredibly ignorant.
It's distressing for me to even think about what my loved one goes through which I've witnessed, (not been just told of) you have no idea of it and you want to doubt it happens.
Absolutely ignorant you are, don't bother speaking to me again about this.

pregno, the points you are making about the treatment of your relative are also true for many thousands of women. Unfortunately, that attitude persists regardless of gender but women are more often the victims in this scenario.

I'm not going to comment on your family situation as that is hardly fair but the rest of your posts do leave me rather open mouthed. I am somewhat surprised that you feel you never encounter sexism. I can only assume that you are very young and are reaping the benefits of those of us who have gone before you!

Did you know, for example, that a single woman couldn't even get a mortgage in the 1970s unless her father guaranteed it? It didn't matter how much she earned...

Did you know that marital rape was "ok" until relatively recently?

dittany i'm quite informed about domestic abuse I lived in a woman's refuge for 5 months last year and am fleeing myself.
The only difference with me is that I KNOW that women are also more than capable of it too.
Unlike you who immediately doubt male victims as you are right now.

You have reminded me why I don't speak of personal things online, I'll be changing my name again now, don't you dare speak of my loved one probably being a liar again,
and go to hell. That woman has put me, him and my younger sibklings through absolute trauma with her violence, she dragged me out of the house by my hair too.
And youre saying she's probably a victim, WTF.
Just go away.

can I make it so I can't see certain poster's comments, anyone?

belle no I didn't know that.
I realise feminist activist have benefitted me, I'm not too clued up on history though and I am in my early 20s.
Always got on with men better after being brought up by a very loving father.
I don't have much understanding of feminism admittedly.

dittany - it's entirely feasible that pregnochick's account of this particular situation is accurate. we have no way of knowing.

pregnochick - I'll take your account at face value and am sorry you and your family have had such a horrible situation to deal with. but, it's one story, from which I can't extrapolate much more. As belledame points out the reality is that dv is more often targetted at women. its also the case that it has particular complexities - tied to other stuff on this thread - like money, childcare, work etc that are experienced in a particular way be men.

re the word feminism - the reason it's not anti-sexism is that its historical roots are in the promotion of women to a position of equality with men.

Don't think so pregnochick Maybe hide this thread

LOL at animula.

It has never crossed my mind that I might be going against my feminist beliefs by choosing to stay at home whilst my children are young. What has crossed my mind however, is how appalling sexist the whole work set up is and how difficult it is still for mothers to maintain/further their careers but not for fathers. But I don't blame feminism for this, I blame poor parental leave, little flexibility for parents in the workplace, expensive or lacking childcare options, etc.

appallingly.

sorry - that was meant to say "that are experienced in a particular way by women" not sure what went on there - trying to do too many things at once.

I have to say, in support of Minette, personally, I feel divorced from feminism. I don't feel hectored by feminists but when I see a woman who is really successful careerwise I see that she has sacrificed so much for it, in particular, the ability to have a good relationship with her children / partner.

If feminism is about equal rights at work, if a woman took a year off (or two) to look after the children, why should she be entitled to walk into a job at the same level and same salary as a man who hasn't taken time off? In real terms she would have a year's less experience.

I can completely understand what Pregnochick is getting at as well. Women are automatically assumed to be innocent in these situations. Did you know Dittany that 1/4 of all men will experience domestic violence in their lives? It is much more than you think. I have known a few of these men in my time and they suffered horribly.

Thanks AliGrylls

I think in a day and age where both parents are likely to work, then there should be more leave for women and men.
My dad took care of me as a baby and many men do and do a great job.
I love the new maternity leave rights women have, I would like to see more of that for both parents, as a pro-children type law

AliGrylls, a couple of thoughts:

"when I see a woman who is really successful careerwise I see that she has sacrificed so much for it, in particular, the ability to have a good relationship with her children / partner"

do you feel the same way about men who are successful careerwise?

"If feminism is about equal rights at work, if a woman took a year off (or two) to look after the children, why should she be entitled to walk into a job at the same level and same salary as a man who hasn't taken time off? In real terms she would have a year's less experience."

I suppose my question would be why should it automatically be the woman who takes a year or two off? It could just as easily be a woman taking off the first 6 months, then her partner taking off the second 6 months (even if you're still b/fing its not so hard to just feed am & pm by then IMO)

AliGrylls, I think you are perpetuating the idea that women have to choose either work or family. And what is one or two years in a career running 40 years or more? By the time the average British woman has children, she has likely been her career at least five years.

In turn, if a woman or man were unemployed for a year, should they have to take a salary cut against someone who had never taken time out of the workforce? That argument is really weak.

Sexist attitudes aside, I do believe that women have equal "rights" in the UK nowadays. At least from the legal perspective. In fact there is even a lot of positive discrimination. To me a big thing still missing is "parental" leave vs maternity leave.

I know that here in Belgium, both parents are entitled to take leave uptil a child's 6th birthday. This equates to 3 month's FT but doesn't have to be taken all at once and can be spread as thin as 9/10s of a week. It CANNOT be refuses though there is some flexibility to fit with business needs. All the women take it, as do plenty of men. 3 months is not a lot, but it is a start.

Also, your tax code takes into account your family situation. ie the number of children, non-working spouse. If the dcs have special needs this is also taken into account. Childcare is generally subsidised and is also tax-deductible (bearing in mind high tax rates here that makes a big difference). Free kindergarten exists from 2.5 and wrap round care is standard.

Domestic help is also tax deductible and there is a system of vouchers you can purchase. If you pay your cleaner/ironer etc with these, it ensures they get a minimum wage and all tax and NI is paid. You also have to ensure them. This cuts down on people exploiting these workers (mostly women).

Also NO-ONE seems to find the need to stay at work til silly o'clock. They go home to eat food and spend time with their families.
A lot more could be done.

This country is not perfect by any means, but a lot could be learnt.

Please excuse typos....

hatwoman Tue 16-Mar-10 19:24:19

Excellent. I agree with all that.

AliGrylls, do you have a link to the one in four men will suffer DV claim? And does it take into account the severity of the violence as compared to that suffered by women? Because it doesn't align with what I've read, but I'm always happy to read more.

Pregno

I am not doubting your story at all - but it is worth saying that the attitude to men as rape victims and DV victims comes from the same place as sexism against women. Men are "obviously" stronger, more dominant and "cannot help" their "natural" aggression; therefore a man who is a victim, be it at the hands of another man (e.g. rape) or a woman (e.g. domestic violence) cannot possibly be a "real" man; therefore his abuse is made light of, is laughed at, or is hidden. Because by not "standing up to it" or even perpetrating the abuse himself he has been put in the position of a victim, a passive, weak, dominated thing - in short, a "typical" woman.

You also see a lot of this attitude at work in heterosexual mockery of male homosexual sex - it is vital to know who is "active" and who is "passive" because, while we can make excuses for the former (prison, frustration, curiosity) the latter must have something wrong with him, because how else could a man "allow himself" to be dominated?

The crimes against men you describe persist because of an unhealthy attitude against women.

MIFLAW

I know, I wish we could be equals, it's so messed up.
I'm glad that girls can do 'boyish' things now, it's sad that boys are still assumed to be gay for doing 'girlish' things though.
Although some people like famous male chefs and hairdressers are getting close to breaking those bariers.
:-)
My mum said my 3yo son looks like a queer with his doll in his pram, luckily I just laughed at her, as I can see she's the one with the problem for caring what people think. I'm happy to see those attitudes dying out :-) because I've had more people say that it's lovely that I'm allowing him to have a doll. :-) I still dress the doll in blue though so worry of how people think is still there somewhat.

"when I see a woman who is really successful careerwise I see that she has sacrificed so much for it, in particular, the ability to have a good relationship with her children / partner"

do you feel the same way about men who are successful careerwise?

^^^^^^
Intereresting question!

I apologise - it said in the title one in four but it is actually one in 6.

Still it is not nothing and if it was a woman saying the same about another woman who was suffering, she would not be asking how "severe" it was. The attitude would be domestic violence is domestic violence and there is no justification for it. There is no justification for it, not matter who it is or how severe and whether it is a man or woman complaining they should be treated equally.

www.gm.tv/lifestyle/families-and-parenting/domestic-violence-helplines-and-advice /28708-domestic-violence-against-men.html