What women want is an end to hectoring by feminists

[emkana]

do you agree?

Maybe I need more of an understanding into what feminism is about.
I've been lucky not to experience or see much or really any sexism towards women, I've already felt accepted and comfortable with men around me all my life.
So I don't feel the need for feminism personally, it sounds like an alien concept to me, like if there was 'male-inism' I'd think what is that about?
I'm oblivious really and actually feel more comfortable with men..

I'm sure there is sexism out there I'd have to learn more about it like I say..

i see sexism around me every day, in the form of women presented in ads, tv programmes, video games and porn as docile creatures in their knickers who are available on demand (possibly for a price) to any man who wants them.

It is sexist that our society tolerates this at all, and that girls have been conditioned to believe that they are empowered and making a choice to show their tits to the boys.

Wow, that was an impressively bad article. I really hope she did it on purpose - and didn't actually think it was well written.

She comes across so anti women working, while writing for a job. Never mind that if feminism never existed, she'd never have been employed.

Pregnochick, sexism is so endemic to society that it's invisible to most people. I have known women in the process of becoming active feminists describe the process as 'taking the red pill', because once you start seeing it, you can't unsee it.

You might well not feel any hostility towards yourself, and be friends with men. That usually means you're patriarchy compliant - as am I, mostly, so I also don't have much personal experience with sexism. But it's pretty obvious that there's huge structural inequalities in our society, isn't it? Incredibly low conviction rates for rape and DV? Overrepresentation of men on the bench, in Parliament, as CEOs, basically in every job that confers power and status and money? Double standards surrounding sexuality? Increasing pressure to take away reproductive rights?

Also, isn't there a distinction between valuing the role of a SAHP, and disliking women who expect to be provided for?

I respect and value the work of parents, male or female, who stay at home full time to care for their children and their household. I don't, though, have a lot of respect for women who expect a man to provide for them, like it's their right by dint of their sex. In my world, a partnership is equal, and if that works best by dividing tasks so that one person earns the money and the other one does the unpaid tasks, fine. If you split everything down the middle, also fine. But the word 'expect' implies that it's not a decision that's been arrived at after negotiation between equals, but an assumption of entitlement made in the abstract.

So no, I don't think it's okay to just expect to be provided for. Any more than I think it's okay to expect someone else to cook your dinner and scrub your skiddy pants.

Sorry, just realised how 'patriarchy compliant' sounds - bloody obnoxious! I mean, you're probably white, middle class, heterosexual, cisgender, ablebodied, pretty, and young. So you fit in.

tortoise
In my experience I've seen males probably suffer more from not having their rapes dealt with by police.
Men and boys are shamed into not reporting their sexual abuse. Men don't get justice or help when they're victims of domestic violence either.
Someone very close to me happens to be a victim of DV, no one takes it seriously when a woman is hurting a man. I've seen male victims be treated very unfairly.
I've seen the rape of a male be treated in a far more 'sweep it under the rug' mannor than if he'd been a girl.
So I've seen more sexism towards males in how little help they can get.
Maybe it's a class thing too.
Women in lower working classes seem to do better, we're the ones working, going to college etc, having a higher income perhaps because of benefits for children, being the responsible ones, paying bills.
I feel we're actually taken more seriously, while the males in this specific 'class' seem to suffer more problems or are idiots who go to jail, can't live a stable life..

Maybe there is more sexism in middle or upper clases, were the men actually DO get important jobs, etc.

I enjoy and believe in different roles for men and women in family life.
And I do expect a man to go out and earn some money while I'm breastfeeding his newborn, it's the least he could do.

Do you have no respect for me for being 'one of those women'?

What an ugly uncomfortable thought,
a world were women can't expect to be looked after while bearing children.
If that's a feminist veiw then I certainly don't want to marry a feminist man, it sounds like he'd just want to avoid his responsibily of providing for his young kids and wife.

Pregnockick

I am a man and cannot believe what I am reading. Are you for real?

"Perhaps it is a class thing" - my grandmother worked in a factory because poverty often trumps sexism and working class women were expected to work. Howver, when she married, she was no longer allowed to work at the factory - she was then seen to be taking a job away from a man who "needed" it.

This was no relection on her, on her work, on her character - it was simply that she was a married woman, so she had no need of her own income and had no right to take away the income of a man by occupying his job. No offence was meant or taken - that was how it was.

That was less than a hundred years ago in the capital city of this country.

And the ONLY reason that it has changed; the only reason that women have a vote; the only reason that, as a man, I am able to treat my partner as an equal because she has not beeen told since the age of 14 that she is wasting her time to get an education and to think; is feminism. The "feminism" of the suffragettes; the "feminism" of the first women to matriculate at colleges of their own at Oxford and Cambridge; the "feminism" of the same women who, having been dismissed from their jobs for getting married, bore no grudge and went back to those same factories during the war; the "feminism" of my two-year-old daughter who sees no reason why she should not play with cars and kick a football just becuase she has a vagina.

Feminism - bring it on!

"I enjoy and believe in different roles for men and women in family life.
And I do expect a man to go out and earn some money while I'm breastfeeding his newborn, it's the least he could do."

Fantastic - nothing wrong with that. But if, for whatever reason, he's not there one day, and on that day you expect to be able to go out and earn your own keep based on the skills you have and not on your looks or your willingness to suck off the boss, then in my book you are a beneficiary of feminism.

Well said MIFLAW

Ok pregnochicklol but would you be prepared to do the same for him if he was unable to work for whatever reason? Feminism is at least about stepping up to the plate under any circumstances and taking responsibility for you and yours. And not expecting men to do all the breadwinning if it isn't possible or desirable. That's 'male-inism' if you like. Taking off shackles for both sexes.

Pregno, you didn't say 'expect to be supported while breastfeeding a newborn' originally, don't try and make me out to be saying something I'm not now, please. Argue in good faith or don't argue. I said I have no problem with how a couple divides up the roles of the household, do what makes sense to you, but don't expect special treatment by dint of your sex. You know perfectly well I meant on an ongoing basis. I stayed home with a newborn too.

The other issues you are bringing up are class issues. Except for the male rape issue, which I agree is a problem. Every feminist I know agrees that. Do you know how to begin to solve that particular issue, the issue of men not being taken seriously re: rape? You break down the societal norms that say 'men are always up for it' or 'men should keep a stiff upper lip'. Do you know which group of people fights for that?

If you've seen men be hurt by sexism, you've seen sexism in action. Feminists would rather like to get rid of that sexism.

MIFLAW and Orm, thank you, I'm not great at selling this, your posts were brilliant.

some great posts here - miflaw and tortoise, you're truly rousing!

pregno - one of the most basic premises of feminism is that people (men as well) should not be treated differently on account of irrelevant aspects of their gender. This is the same premise that underlies all anti-discrimination pro-equality movements.

so, as orm says, your example of male rape and domestic violence against men, is part of the same problem that feminists have identified and wish to change - people being treated in a particular way, on account of their gender, when there is no objective reason to do so.

the bits about irrelevant aspects of gender, and objective reasons is important - becaseu some people (not you) raise a tired and ill--informed anti-feminist argument that being a feminist is about ignoring differences between women and men and trying to pretend we're the same. there are aspects of being female (and male) that, obviously, cannot be ignored (and sane feminists don't ignore them) and which mean that sometimes women and man require different treatment - the obvious example being time off work to go to ante-natal appointments, to give birth, to breast feed. However some "differences", on closer inspection, aren;t really differences but are actually ingrained prejudice about proper roles. the obvious examples being ability to look after children and ability to earn a decent wage. I dream of a world where these most basic of life-skills are not seen as having a gendered tinge and society isn't structured accordingly. imo we're half-way there but I have such high hopes for dds. core it's almost worth trying for a boy so that I can bring him up a feminist. (joke)

I only skim-read the ST, but I noticed at least three articles bleating that what women reeeeaaaally wanted was domesticity and nothing else. Not for me, thanks.

And what the hell does she mean by "few women are offered careers" - wait, somebody offers you a career? I must have been out sick that day - there was I thinking that it was something you had to develop yourself.

Mind you, someone probably just "offered" her the ST job.

I'd agree with others that feminism is about allowing everyone, male or female to live a full life without being constrained by prejudices about what is appropriate for their gender.

I certainly don't think, for example, that the (many) men I know who play a full and equal role in bringing up their children are suffering compared to their fathers - I would say that them, their partners and of course their children all benefit.

What often seems to happen though is that what seems to me an extremely sexist arrangement - mother working full time but still taking on all the household & childcare responsibilities, with child/ren in f/t nursery to 'allow' her to work - is somehow taken (mostly by journalists like this one, it must be said) to be the "feminist ideal".

Glad to help - I'm just amazed that I, a man, should end up arguing FOR feminism AGAINST (thankfully few) women!

According to all the comedians I heard growing up, I was under the impression it was meant to be the other way round ...

Nor, in case anyone throws it at me, am I any sort of "political-correctness-gone-mad-lentil-wearing-hippy-drip-layabout-freak." I just like women and I like them even more when they're in a position to be equal to me rather than subjugated by society into being less than.

Incidentally, I heard a man in a toy shop about a year ago. I noticed him because his daughter was about the same age as mine, ie 1 or 2 years old, and they seemed the same sort of family as us, middle class, educated, not rich but so so far from poor. And he was showing her some "boys' toys" and saying to her, "look, X, that's what you'd be interested in if YOU were a boy." I couldn't believe it. Not even, "if you were a boy, you could have one of those" - ie you're not allowed them because you're a girl" - but "that's what you'd be interested in if YOU were a boy" - ie you should not even be INTERESTED in it, let alone HAVE one. I thought, FFS, it's still going on. I hope my daughter never gets anywhere near to a man like that, in any relationship whatsoever - boyfriend, husband, teacher, colleague, classmate, even swimming coach or Girl Guide leader. Because she's worth more.

MIFLAW -I had a very smilar experience. little girl in a toy shop chosing a dressing up outfit. she wanted the firefighter. two WOMEN (ffs!) - I'm guessing they were mum and granny - laughed at her and said "they're for boys, wouldn't you rather have this" (picking up some frilly fairy outfit). The granny caught my eye and gave me a conspiratorial "what are they like" look. and I just couldn't bring myself to agree - and found myself saying "If she were mine I'd let her have it". I didn;t say it aggressively but I was pretty angry tbh. not just the sexism angle but because they were laughing at her. the whole episode was profoundly depressing.

Applauds MIFLAW.

Hatwoman, that's exactly it - it's harder to fight, isn't it, when the opponents don't see it as a fight in the first place! "What, fight over that? It's just an outfit." It's just a child. It's just a little girl. It's just someone being encouraged to give up choices before she even knows she has them.

(before reading all posts)

I want to thank you all for enlightening me on the history of sexism that I'm pretty unaware of.
Like I said I've just repeated my experiences, I don't see sexism towards women.
Please don't be hostile with me for being honest with what I see, I don't believe I'm living in an era of sexism primarily towards women, infact I'm amazed by how much women get away with when belittling and abusing men.
I have suffered domestic violence myself and the police were fantastic, believed me instantly and I have SO much support.
I know a man close to me who has experienced an incredibly volatile wife who calls the police and HE gets arrested, he gets no support from anyone, the abuse he suffers isnt taken seriously, it's very unfair.

Don't be angry with me for repeating my personal experience.

And now I will read the rest of the posts,
please don't feel you need to be angry at me or offended by me, etc

I am delighted that my son is going through a phase of loving pink. But I have had several comments about the fact that he got the Rosie train for his birthday which is what he wanted. I find the number of people who still think buying a female character train for a small boy is going to cause his sexual identity to have a wobble quite astounding.

On a slightly more serious note, Marin and Odone are both writing on behalf of the Tory party and I am alarmed at this 'back to the kitchens' stance. How ironic that they're both working mothers though

Okay I see some great posts, all resonable, I think everyone is going to attack me sometimes! :-p

If feminsim just means anti-sexism then I'm all for it.
My 3 year old son has a doll and a pram he takes everywhere, he loves it, the pram is even pink as I couldn't find a blue one.
I also like his hair long he looks gorgeous.

It makes me very sad too to see them restricted, I saw a little boy being dragged past the 'girls' toy section and ushered to the boy's when he was obviously more interested in the former.
I LOVE those pretty little girl's clothes and shoes but I haven't dressed him in them because obviously I don't want him to suffer from everyone elses ignorance.
I do let him play with my make up and even nail varnish, but wiped it off quickly incase the health visitor though I was abusing him (he could have kept it on if he was a girl).

Maybe there are big misconceptions about what feminism is, the name itself implies it's pro-women only.
I would be more comfortable with just calling myself anti-sexist.
Like I'm anti-racist.

Do you know what I mean?

dittany you are doubting him again like everyone else would.
He's a family member of mine who brought me up, I would know if he was abusive himself.
I've slept over and heard the kinds of things she says to him 'your wothrthless, scum, etc' she's hurt me massively too.
I've witnessed the aftermath of his head bleeding from a heavy ornament and a cut to the throat with keys, she had bruises on her arms from being held and pushed away.
The police came to take me out of her house because she was threatening to hurt me too (in order to hurt him).
The police were not eager to arrest her at all, as she sobs like a poor woman when they come. She is a lunatic and the things she's said, even massively hurtful comments about my children are beyond fucked up.