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Original poster

Venables - one of the James Bulger killers - back in jail

625 replies

LadyBlaBlah · 02/03/2010 21:39

here

Not a good advertisement for the rehabilitation programme they went on. I did hear that it was in Ireland and he tried to strangle a girlfriend..........but obviously that is not based on any factual evidence, just internet gossip.

Anyhow, difficult difficult difficult

OP posts:
PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 04/03/2010 18:29

How is that not abuse if that is true about JV? And yes I did feel for that poor innocent what- 8 year old as I read it.

becuase you see he became a murdered at 10: whether one was abused or both, until that age neoitehr did anything to make it oK that they received abuse (either or).

And y y to baying mob: opposite opinion I have no problem baying mob for 10 yrear olds makes me

happymatleave · 04/03/2010 18:33

'I'm still scratching my head as to how the actions of a disturbed 10 year old bring out the baying mob more than if they had been perpetrated by an adult'

I'm not sure that they do. This is the most disturbing, horrific case of pre-meditated torture and murder in my time (that I know of). If the perpetrators were adults, I would feel the same.

I think it's more a case of their age not being any excuse for what they did rather than a reason for a baying mob. I'm sure there would have been a baying mob if they had been adults not children.

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 04/03/2010 18:36

If 2 posts appear sorry, door was knocked and PC crashed

If that is true about venables then . At that stage remember he was not a murderer, he was a small boy being put thorugh Hell. becuase surely that's abuse?

How can any mother read that about him pre- JB and not feel sad for him? I know I do. That doesn't in any way reduce my beleif in the severity of what he did and his culpability but does make me fel sad.

Milly Ian Huntley was a double murderer, adult with a horrid background of sexually motivated crime wasn't he?

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 04/03/2010 18:37

See Iknew that'd dopuble up

never mind; bit about ian Huntley ahd beena dded

Scotia · 04/03/2010 18:39

MMM, can you really not understand that there is a difference between Huntley, an adult when he killed, and those 2 disturbed 10 year old children.

nannynobnobs · 04/03/2010 18:57

Have people finally stopped saying "some are just born evil, there can be no rehabilitation" yet?
There is a lot of "throw away the key, worse than animals, JB will never have a life so why should they"
What if it was your son who had murdered? If evil is inborn, not inflicted on a child, then what's to stop your children turning into a Venables or a Bell?
Would you then be so eager for their whole life to have a big line drawn through it, for them to never be allowed outside a secure facility again?
I know most of the children in question have abusive parents who don't care but there do seem to be some posters here who think they were born evil and will always be evil. Presumably this means they could come from caring parents like you too?

nannynobnobs · 04/03/2010 18:59

Peachy I see you have real worries about this and are being extremely proactive and being there every step of the way for your DS. That obv was not aimed at you!

2shoes · 04/03/2010 19:01

where is this "baying mob"
yes there has been a couple of rot in hell posts, but most have not been saying that. #
I know I haven't
I have hust question the "punishment" they got.
hardly baying.

KimiGaveUpStarbucks4Lent · 04/03/2010 19:10

The only people who deserve any sympathy, the only people who are victims in this are the little boy who was tortured and murdered and his family who lost their beautiful child.

There are millions of abused children out there who don't grow up in to cold blooded killers.

MillyMollyMoo · 04/03/2010 19:14

Scotia I completely see/understand the difference thank you, I was responding to the question of why people felt more hatred towards children that murder children, they don't it's child killers in general that peoples blood pressure up.
Nanny if somebody in my family did what those boys did they'd be in police custody for their own protection. I couldn't look at them again.

PreachyPeachyRantsALot · 04/03/2010 19:34

I seem to be saying this a lot Milly but wow, you'd be a murderer yourseelf then?

2shoes I certainly didnt include you in that mob, and Lo! the ones I did were appearing around the same time

Kimi the children were not murderers when tehy or he depending on truth of it was or were abused. How were they not vicxtims? Or is abuse only wrong if you ahvea full set of predictions for the future stating that trhe person will not go on to offend?

Of course not, abuse is wrong full stop.

Scotia · 04/03/2010 20:18

Ah I see MMM. It was the sarcasm that put me off. It was you with the 'poor bloke' comment that has upset a few people too.

happymatleave · 04/03/2010 20:29

By DuelingFanjo Wed 03-Mar-10 10:09:13
How the Hell did the press get to know about this, poor bloke.

here's hoping that it's something very minor and he is back out to carry on with his life soon

I don't think that this was sarcastic.

CoteDAzur · 04/03/2010 20:41

Wondering how and why those kids became psychopathic predators is all well and good, but surely the question we should be pondering here is whether or not they can ever be truly rehabilitated - i.e. 'reset' to a 'human' state, one where a modicum of empathy would suffice to be incapable of committing such an act.

This is not about revenge, punishment, or second chances. This is about two young people who are different.

gotogirl · 04/03/2010 20:55

I have read the Indie piece, very interesting.

But I am struck by the thought that it is all about rehabilitation....and nothing about punishment.

I agree that 10 year olds who commit even horrific crimes should not be locked up forever, that they do need to be given the chance to change, that rehabilitation is important. But just because they were 10 when they committed the crimes, does this mean they can't be punished?

In which case, why do we (ie normal parents) all strive to find appropriate discipline measures for our kids, toddlers, teens? I think most normal parents know that bad behaviour needs to be sanctioned, not just accepted and the child incentivised with treats and carrots. I do punish my children for bad behaviour, I think it is pivotal to creating boundaries.

These kids are removed from violent, abusive home lives where poverty, alcoholism, drug taking, etc are all rife. They are given clean, warm accommodation and given clear boundaries. I would not see any of that as punishment, quite the reverse, they are being helped by being removed from their chaotic home environments.

They are then educated and incentivised with treats. All good.....

But nowhere does punishment come into it. Al I barking up the wrong tree by punishing my kids if the top shrinks don't believe it works?

2shoes · 04/03/2010 21:14

gotogirl good point

peachy they might have been victims of abuse, but they are not the victims in this case.

Oblomov · 04/03/2010 21:19

I agree with rhubarb and expat.
And i am shocked, SHOCKED at what a hard time you all gave milly, for commenting on 2 details -paint and batteries- why should we not talk about what happened. the details. to remind ourselves at what an awful thing it was.
the details are in the tabloid papers at the moment.
and why should denise bulger write what she wnats to on twitter. she is allowed.
and many people objected to the cost , of giving them new identites at the time- i remmeber it being a big debate and tax payers questioning why they should put up for this cost.

i am really shocked by this thread. only rhubard and expats view do i agree with.

Scotia · 04/03/2010 21:20

''By MillyMollyMoo Wed 03-Mar-10 10:21:25
How the Hell did the press get to know about this, poor bloke.

here's hoping that it's something very minor and he is back out to carry on with his life soon.

I doubt Jamies mother has been able to carry on with her life knowing this lad poured paint in her baby's eyes and pushed batteries into his anus.
It wouldn't be something minor, people released on tag/license and bail disappear for months on end before anyone catches up with them and put them back in prison, so whilst we don't know what it is he's done I very much doubt it's not signing in at the right time''

Ah I can see that now happymatleave, my mistake. I thought this was the first 'poor bloke' post. If MMM had put quotation marks around it I would have known it wasn't her post.

He's certainly not a poor bloke in my eyes. I have said all along I can feel sorry for the boys they were but not the men they now are and if he has chosen to breach the terms of his licence, he deserves whatever punishment he gets.

WidowWadman · 04/03/2010 21:27

"Another point being that friends of ours were looking to adopt a child, happy to consider an older child, basically social services told them that by the age of 3 the damage was done and any hope of a normal family life as a child or adult was relatively small. Even without all other factors, the murder, the chances of Venables ever being anything but a career criminal were slim IMO."

What point are you trying to make? Should 3 year olds who had a pretty bad life so far be locked away because they are lost causes anyway?

Oblomov · 04/03/2010 21:34

agree with 2shoes. my best friends ds is 10. i have some idea of how mature 10 years olds are/can be.
8 years, in no more than a childrens home, rather than a prison, doesn't fit the crime,

happymatleave · 04/03/2010 21:38

Scotia - sorry I didn't put quotation marks around my post either and realise I should have. Didn't mean to confuse things further.

StewieGriffinsMom · 04/03/2010 21:45

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn

MoreCrackThanHarlem · 04/03/2010 21:46

Nannynonobs made a very good point earlier that I don't feel has been addressed.
If some children are indeed 'born evil', anyone of us, in spite of our parenting style, could become parents of a murderer.

So to those who have expressed this opinion, what if it was your child who had murdered another? Would you have them locked away for the rest of their natural life?Or would you fight with every last breath to get them the help and rehabilation they needed?

If you believe that your child could never be capable of such a crime as a result of your love and guidance does it not invaldate your argument of 'innate evil'?

2shoes · 04/03/2010 21:48

oh please not sn..
are we now going to say they had special needs

happymatleave · 04/03/2010 21:52

Stewie - they did not have special needs or difficulty comprehending ethics. They knew that what they were doing was wrong. They planned it in cold blood.