Venables - one of the James Bulger killers - back in jail

[LadyBlaBlah]

here

Not a good advertisement for the rehabilitation programme they went on. I did hear that it was in Ireland and he tried to strangle a girlfriend..........but obviously that is not based on any factual evidence, just internet gossip.

Anyhow, difficult difficult difficult

"difficult to comprehend ethics" Good God

they tortured a baby to death, what an awful understatement. They did not find it difficult to understand at the time that this was very very wrong, their "sn" did not prevent them from planning and deceiving many adults along the way.

It's ok happymatleave, I understood and realise it was my mistake

I did notice Nannynonobs point MoreCrack, and it's a very good one.

Yes I have read Peachy's responses and I don't think you can compare the situation with her DS to James Bulger's killers.

There is a big difference between a child with special needs who is capable of violence and a child planning the torture and murder of a toddler.

As a teacher there are very very few children I have not liked. I came across two many years ago who seemed psychopathic and I would not be surprised if they commited a crime like the Bulger murder.

I was a victim of abuse growing up and it has certainly limited my ability to function in society. The fact that I have managed to hold down a job and become a loving parent is testament to a few key adults, my faith ( IMO and I know others will doubt that) and the fact that I do have a quite unusual strength of character. So many times in my life I have said "millions of kids are abused but they do not go on to abuse, bully or kill others." But my contact with these boys shifted my opinion forever. There abuse made my childhood look like a walk in the park. These boys were punished for some of the awful things they did while I was in contact with them but we also needed to rehabilitate their behaviour.

From what I know of JV and RT there childhoods were similar. Someone else above said that they could not believe that two children from two different families could be abused or disturbed to such an extent. I can say from experience yes they can and the moment they meet they will be drawn to, and fascinated by, each other.

I think JV and RT needed to be punished, ( as I did the boys I had contact with) anyone who knows anything about these residential centres knows they will be. These boys will not have had an easy life but yes it probably will have been better than if they had stayed at home. I do have some sympathy for JV RT aged 10 having met other boys not too dissimilar to them. I suspect if I had known them that sympathy would have been tinged with loathing and anger. I also think that perhaps longer sentences would have been appropriate, although as an outsider that is an empty statement.

That does not mean that I do not feel even greater sympathy for the mother of James Bulger or anger about what happened.

Milly did not quote facts about the attack she quoted tabloid fabrications created to whip up a frenzy.

StewieGriffinsMom thank you I do know about sn.
if that had been the case it would have been used in thier defence.

stewie i did not think my comparison was silly. i was just saying that i know a few 10 years olds and they are generally quite mature. and know the difference between right and wrong.
and the two boys were not sn. one from loving family, so i think the comparison is valid.
and they were not in jail. their life was notrestricted int he way a jail life is. thats all i was saying. don't dismiss my opinions. they are only opinions. not trained pyschologist. but i am not stupid or ignorant. i am allowed to have these opinions.

What's the point in talking about him as though he's still 10?

Jon Venables doesn't even exist anymore. The adult he is now has a whole new identity and has benefited from half a lifetime of therapeutic intervention.

He's been given a second chance - a new life, the whole slate wiped clean. If he's blown it, that's on him. There should be no excuses and no more chances. Otherwise it makes a mockery of the justice system, such as it is.

I agree that the Jon Venables ages 10 is a different person than the adult and he needs to face the adult justice system.

twinset, oh i thought that the batteries was reported at the time. was that not true then ?

I really don't like mawkish posting but milly said something about the way the batteries were used which was reprted at the time by a few trashy tabloids. The police and others in the no said it was false. Unless milly has inside information ( and if she does why is she posting it on here?) she is wrong.

Twinset, that was an excellent post.

My friend's dss was like this. He wasn't abused, but his brother died from cot death and his mother had a breakdown and left him with his father. I think the 2 losses at such a young age (he was only two at the time) really damaged him. At one time I truly feared for what he could have been capable of.

He used to do awful things to other children in the playground - he covered one little boy in dogshit. It was even in the other boy's eyes. My friend really tried her best with him, but what he needed was professional help/counselling. His dad wouldn't allow it though, I think he was frightened of what other people would say - maybe justified when you see some attitudes on forums like this. He was a very disturbed little boy and eventually he did something so terrible social services had to be involved. I hope that their involvement has helped him not to go down the criminal path, and so far he has done ok.

Bobbysmum, I said the same thing several times but it wasn't acknowledged. We are not talking about a 10 year old little boy any more, but it's hard for people to see past the photo of him standing in front of the height chart. He is a grown man and has to take responsibility for his actions now.

stewie it was just that lots of posters were saying, but they are only 10.

stewie i do know a tiny bit about secure. my mum was and my step dad currently heads a ss dept.
but i still don't think that even 8 yrs in that is sufficient justice.
just MY view.

Jon Venables was a dangerous child, and it would seem that despite years of understanding, nurturing and intensive therapy that he has grown into a dangerous adult.

And yet there is really no solid evidence that he was abused as a young child.

Which really does make you think. Can a person be born dangerous?

By StewieGriffinsMom Thu 04-Mar-10 22:47:31
"2shoes - one of the stories in the media right now is that the judge disallowed a statement by psychiatrists testifying to JV's serious delay. If that's true, then it wasn't used in their defence. It its true, its a massive failure of the justice system."

Stewie - you don't seem to except that there is the possibility that these boys were just plain evil. Maybe they were.

The massive failure in the justice system is that anyone can commit a crime like this and be free in 8 years.

"if it was your child who had murdered another? Would you have them locked away for the rest of their natural life?Or would you fight with every last breath to get them the help and rehabilation they needed?"

Of course we would. But a mother's love for her child has nothing to do with the society's decision to keep murderers in jail or set them free.

BORN evil ? not sure. part nurture and nature is my stance. although in our nature some of us are just lovelier than others aren't we. when you meet a person who is just so thoroughly beautiful, in every way. so there does have to be an element of being born with certain traits/personality.
not every baby comes out and behaves the same way.

From what I have read about the case ( I use it as an illustratin in one of my lessons) Venables self harmed, was suicidal, his mother has quite serious depression, he was hyperactive, he siblings had learning difficulties and his mother was known to leave the children alone for hours. He was supposed to have been terrified of his mother who made herself very unpopular with the police. He also routinely watch horror movies.

I doubt someone can be born evil as such. I do have experience of someone who is very close to evil and yet their siblings are all caring functioning members of society. The person in question does have an acute psychiatric disorder so could qualify as mad rather than bad.

I really doubt that his parole was revoked for anything minor actually. I think it would have been hushed up if that was the case.

And I think the reason that it isn't in the 'public interest' to know what he's done is so that the media interest in the case doesn't prevent him from getting a fair trial and the case being thrown out on a technicality.

I don't believe he was in a fight at work either.

We don't know thought Bobby and he could have had his parole revoked for something very minor. We can only really go on what the law states.

I can't read the whole thread because it's too long......just wanted to add my thoughts wrt to the debate over whether there are some who cannot be rehabilitated.

If we view anyone as beyond rehabilitation then we are giving up on humanity.

Those who believe that RT and JV were evil do so, imho because they are afraid to understand why, how it happened and it is therefore easier to write them off as 'monsters' or 'subhuman'.

I think that often there are complex sets of circumstances that result in some people committing awful crimes (like how the holocaust came to be, for example - a lot of people would have been complicit in that for it to happen - were they all evil? I doubt it, but they were subject to various conditioning factors).