French citizenship : Only if your wife isn't veiled

[nothingofthesort]

I can't figure out what to make of this. Men shouldn't get a say in how their wives dress isn't it? Doesn't this encourage the opposite?

I'd like to hear what Riven has to say about this one.

Is it that they're trying to restrict immigration from muslims or is it really about women's rights?

Personally I think telling someone that they can't wear something is as bad and telling someone hey must wear something.

I think it's a brave decision but the right one.

I agree with Sarkozy, when he says that the full face covering veil is nothing to do with religion and everything to do with subservience and debasement.

I think it's the right decision.
Unless the husband is covered up too.

i think its wrong. a person's attire is their own business, and no one elses, not their husbamd, not the states.

i would never ever wear a mini skirt, coz the state said i had to. equally, i would never wear a veil in england, if i was told i had to. however, i am currently abroad, and when walking along the dusty streets, i wish i was wearing a veil

this is a tricky one..on one hand what we wear should NOT ideally be a criteria but in the real world I agree it very well is .. i just think the French and the rest of us should try to engage more with these others whom we "fear" and "suspect" because they have chosen to veil themselves from us. We could very well be in for mnay a surprise if we got to know them better and them us too!

What is so wrong with saying 'no' to the dehumanising of women?

Am not sure what I think about this. If I visited some arab states, I would be required to dress according to their values, fair enough. Why should France not be able to say the same, that certain ways of dressing are against their values?

But on the other hand, I am uncomfortable with laws dictating what women can and cannot wear.

dehumanising women also takes the shape of turning them into sex objects on tv ads and using the female image to sell and to attrart consumers to watch songs in video mode etc etc..why does there have to be a partially dressed women in a car advert for example? what does that do to the humanity of women? and what about not giving women the same wages as men although doing the same job? and what about shunning women of a mature age from particiapting in jobs where image is so vital like the recently debated issue of whether older women could go on to be talk show hosts etc etc..i am sure the lsist could go on forvere...come on who are we deluding? do we seriously assume in the west that we have found the answer and are a model for women thw world over??!!!!

nobody is saying that any society is perfect saraya. I am not sure why you have brought all of this up.
Mind you, we are doing a lot better than women who are stoned to death for adultery etc etc

For a very long time since colonialism times the western world has sought to preach the other world on what is "best"- an attitude which although not always so blatantly obvious is demonstrated even now so very often. Women were stoned to death in our part of the world for a long time in history as well and women were sold and bought as well ..History has taught us that humans will go through much before they can change their behaviour and not always for the best.One way of helping this change come about is by educating and enagaging with those whom we think are in the wrong without presiding over them and assuming we are more civilised etc etc..i am not out to offend mrsrufaflo( on the contrary) but somebody did mention dehumanizing women above and it provoked me.

well it's their country and they can state their terms for becoming citizens but as a Muslim I will be steering well clear of France - it all looks like the start of a slippery slope to me.

smallwhitecat, I think immigrants do often accuse the French of colonialism, given many migrants are from former French colonies.

It's a tricky one, because yes, I agree no-one should tell a woman - or any adult - how to dress. At the same time, I dislike the face veil because I suspect not every person who wears it has made a free choice. And because it is clearly a symbol of oppression, literally separating the woman from the world and preventing anyone else from reading her facial expressions.

That may be subverted by some younger Muslim women in the same way young Black men reclaim the 'N' word but it still leaves me very uncomfortable.

Whole areas of the human brain have evolved to decode facial expressions. IMO the face veil is wrong, wrong, wrong unless you live in a desert when it may well come in handy for practical reasons. (I didn't even wear a veil at my own wedding, btw.)

Ultimately I guess it's for the French to decide on their own customs and laws. We've taken a more relaxed approach in this country, of letting anyone do their own thing rather than worrying about making them become 'British' ? until very recently. Who knows which way is best?

it's their country, their democracy, their business as far as i'm concerned.

having lived there, they have a different culture, population makeup and outlook from Britain.

it's no more or less wrong than Britain's.

don't like it, don't live there.

I have a problem with the fact that it seems to be the man's business to ensure his wife follows certain rules if he wants to be granted citizenship. Isn't that horribly opressing? Why can't it just be that the women are denied citizenship, since it's the women who they have the problem with. Isn't the French government saying that it is a man's duty to make sure his wife is appropriately dressed as per their norms? That makes me really .

Maybe their next rule will be that women will not be granted citizenship if their husbands have full Islamic-style beards.

think it is totally wrong, if the want to deny citizenship based on veil wearing they should deny the woman citizenship (not my ideal but their democrary etc) i cant see why they should be extending that to her husband, presumerably to encourage her husband to pressurise the woman to do something she doesnt want to....state condoned bullying......obv far less oppressive for the women

I think you are all rather willfully misinterpreting this.

They are saying that women who wear the full veil will and/or the husbands that force them to do so will not be given citizenship.

the veil symbolises oppression and, as the French minister says, women that want to wear it or men that support it would not have the same values as the majority of French people.

Good for the French.

I hate the veil. I think perpetuates women being second class, having to be blamed for men considering them attractive and other issues to.

I agree with you nancy66. it makes women faceless, anonymous, chattels....

No they are not saying that the husbands that force them to do so will not be denying citizenship, they are saying that husbands of veiled women will not be given citizenship. How do they determine if it's been forced anyway? The assumption has already been made that they must have been forced. So the government is saying Oh you men, you wear the pants, make sure you tell the little wife to stop wearing the veil.

Hurray for the French. When in Rome, do as the Romans do. It is about showing you agree with the values of the French people, which is what citizenship is about, when it's all boiled down. Wearing the full veil is like giving the finger to those values and all the hundreds of years that have gone into making them. If you don't want to be French, as the term is defined by the French government and the majority of the French people, stay away.