French citizenship : Only if your wife isn't veiled

[nothingofthesort]

I can't figure out what to make of this. Men shouldn't get a say in how their wives dress isn't it? Doesn't this encourage the opposite?

disagree with

I think if we are expected by law to cover up in countries such as Saudi then there is nothing wrong with the French making a law that reflects their cultural beliefs

Don't you want to live in a society which is freer than Saudi Arabia?!

tether, freer than saudi arabia? in ksa (kingdom of saudi arabia) i can take pictures as easily as i can here, in public. ie, i cant. over here you have to worry constantly about having ot ask people if its ok their kids keep coming in the shot, and even if they say its ok, you have to go back and ask them if its ok if you can share the pictures with your parents. ad infinitum.

grr...
there are lots of things wrong with ksa, but, this is far far worse.
i must get off this thread, before my blood boils, and i havent honestly got the time to get into this argument.

the ability to take photos v. a garment that covers a persons so thoroughly they can barely see.

at vvvvodka

and it's their country. their democracy. their secularism and their sense of nationality which they feel is being compromised.

they feel about this as strongly as nations which force all women to wear a veil.

so one's more right than the other?

don't like it, don't live there.

Yes, yay for Obama, about to send even more troops to Afghanistan!

Yay for a nation whose Congress is stronly allied to fundamentalist Christianity.

vvvodka; a rational response in a democratic society- which we are- to an infringement of civil liberties such as the photography situation you describe, may be to demonstrate, protest, campaign and ultimately vote according to your beliefs.

A rational response is not to ban the veil.

I'm not really sure what your point is. Our society is not perfect by any means but that does not mean we should aspire to an oppressive one. Perhaps Sweden allows you to take photos and wear whatever you want whilst you do so? I think we may be better to aspire to that as a society...

"so one's more right than the other?"

expat, this makes them as bad as another- oppression is oppression.

"don't like it, don't live there."

Would you have said this about the German Jews in 1935?

'so a french citizen who wants to wear a veil should be forced to leave? Thats not democracy. Thats oppression.
Would you put up with your country telling you what to wear?'

i thought this was about denying citizenship to those whose wives wear a burka, not banning its use entirely. personally, i wouldn't mind seeing it banned, BUT that's not at issue in France at the moment. that's a whole different matter separate from this thread.

and if i had been brought up French, my country telling me what to wear would more than likely be a non-issue because due to the secularism which pervades the underlying sense of nationality, i'd probably not be inclined to wear overt symbols of religious affiliation.

'Would you have said this about the German Jews in 1935?'

Comparing genocide to a democracy's denying citizenship to men whose wives wear a particular garment is not only a cheap shot, but downright disgusting.

they're not banning it!

they're saying men whose wives wear it can stay on residency permits, but not take French citizenship, because, as math pointed out in her excellent post, the garment is a political manifesto in their eyes.

They are not telling anyone to leave though.

If I felt that strongly that I would deny my daughter an education then I doubt I would be living in a secular society.
Never mind, at least you could send your boys

It's the thin end of the wedge expat... They have already banned the wearing of the veil in all public schools and colleges.

My DP is French. It's not a non-issue to him. France is most definitely not a secular country- Catholicism is rife

FWIW, when he was at school, he was regularly his across the face with a book, breaking his nose on one occasion, if he didn't know the answer to the teacher's question. This was standard practice (and perhaps 'part of the culture') in French schools in the eighties. Guess what? It's not now. They changed.

Just because something is 'cultural' does not make it beyond reproach. This applies to both sides.

They haven't just banned the veil from schools they have banned all religious symbolism, which is fair enough, you can wear whatever you like put of school

'They have already banned the wearing of the veil in all public schools and colleges.'

They banned the wearing of all overt religious symbols.

"Comparing genocide to a democracy's denying citizenship to men whose wives wear a particular garment is not only a cheap shot, but downright disgusting."

Err... where did I mention genocide????

Obviously, you've never heard of the Nuremberg Laws, then..