French citizenship : Only if your wife isn't veiled

[nothingofthesort]

I can't figure out what to make of this. Men shouldn't get a say in how their wives dress isn't it? Doesn't this encourage the opposite?

Excellent - well done, the French.

Dinner is on the table, so won't post more, but thoroughly approve.

"i think that the muslim community gets upset about these decisions as it does seem to be a gradual process of saying NO MUSLIMS HERE, first no scarfs in most schools, then law passed and no scarfs in any schools, no no niqaab if you want citizenship, or your husband does"

No-one is legislating against Islam. They are legislating against people wearing veils and tents and other such anachronisms.

Thanks for that, Paolosgirl

Care to elaborate?

She's about to dinner, she did explain that.

"No-one is legislating against Islam. They are legislating against people wearing veils and tents and other such anachronisms."

But they are (proposing to) legislate against only those 'veils and tents' which denote Islamic faith. Traditional dress from other cultures (NW Africa, for example) is not legislated against no matter how 'tenty' or un-French it is.

I wouldn't wear one but when I see a woman with a veil I don't automatically wonder whether she's oppressed. Where I see women dressed very provocatively, fake tits, funny face surgery, false lips - I think they are very much oppressed by our ideals of a woman looking like this, weighing that, having x shaped thighs etc....

Anyhow - why are we assuming that the women referred to in France are settlers - are many of them French born and bred? Is it the assumption that their 'foreign' husbands will force them to wear them?

mrsruffalo, I'm not sure I believe the dinner thing. It seemed an odd comment to post- why not just wait til after dinner? Hence the

I hope she comes back and corrects me.

Viva la France !

"Traditional dress from other cultures (NW Africa, for example) is not legislated against no matter how 'tenty' or un-French it is."

No, because those dress codes do not require people to totally hide their face.

And so what if they do? Let me repeat myself for the nth time, I disagree with the niqab. Strongly.

In the same way I disagree with the BNP.

Yet I believe to legislate against both would be wrong.

Well,his main argument seems to be that the believes the niqab represents a segregration from French society and Riven actually backs that up by explaining in her earlier post that women choose to wear it as a rejection of western values.
Why on earth would you apply for citizenship in a western country if you really felt like that?
I think you see conspiracy theories everywhere, thethers- a very suspicious mind.
Anyway, I am repeating myself again and again and again
Women in the western world have a lot more freedom than those in many other parts of the world-I think it's a bit of a luxury to reject western values whilst enjoying the freedom it offers you.

Baffled as to where the conspiracy theory and suspicious mind accusation comes from, mrsruffallo...

I'm not the one who sees a piece of fabric as such a danger to humanity that it must be stamped out at all costs...

Glad you're back, Riven

But the (theoretical) man who is being penalised and denied citizenship isnt choosing to wear a niqaab, that is the problem.

His wife may choose to wear a niqaab, she may choose to do as riven suggested take it of for interviews etc. gain citizenship then wear it 24/7.

Her husband can not be held responsible for her actions. She is a seperate human being. She is not his property.

However Sarcozy has decided that these muslim women need to be controlled by men and forced to remove their niqaabs. If they are being forced to wear a niqaab (again a minority i know alot of muslim women i know none forced to be subsivient by their husband apart from a couple who are now divorced due to said unreasonable behaviour) i dont see how it makes them less controlled, they are forced to wear it by husband, then forced to remove it by husband to jump through immigration hoops......how is that helpful to them?

"So the (French) government can do whatever they like in the name of "French values" and are beyond reproach for doing so?"
Yes, they can. They are the democratically elected government of the French people. Anyone who wants to object is welcome to object -- freedom of speech exists in France. They can be reproached by anyone.

"Plenty of people are living as part of the French community whilst waiting for their citizenship application to be approved. They would be thrown out." Why not? Nobody has an automatic right to live anywhere they choose, to move somewhere and stay there without restriction. They came to live in a country they obviously knew very little about. Yet, they want to become citizens of that country. It is up to them to choose how or whether they will accommodate themselves to the laws and mores of their country of choice.

Veils, are in question here, i.e. religious symbols, not 'tents' or traditional costumes from any part of the world outside France. Traditional north African dress is not a religious symbol, nor are Irish dancing dresses. Hence, no ban.

"I'm not the one who sees a piece of fabric as such a danger to humanity that it must be stamped out at all costs..."
If it's a piece of fabric, why is it important to anyone? It's not a danger to humanity, it's a religious symbol. To wear a symbol instead of openly debating the merits or otherwise of modest dress for women or the culture of secularism of any particular state is also to poke the idea of free speech in the eye. You're making a statement when you wear the niqab in a country like France, not intellectually or rationally (again, counter to French culture and values) but with your chosen symbol. For much the same reasons, it is against German law to display Nazi symbols, wear Nazi uniforms, etc. Symbols speak.

It is a tricky one...

I live in France (Paris 'burbs). I am English, agnostic and wear Western clothing. I have several Muslim friends. Some wear veils some do not. One wears a burka. One group of friends live in the same town which is populated by many French-Algerian Muslims.

When I am out and about with my veiled friends I suppose I quite like their exoticness as they like mine. They all now love Victoria Sponge Cake and they have introduced me to the delights of sweet mint tea to be drunk lounging on low sofas with bites of dried fruits and nuts between sips. It is fun to enter into each others Worlds. TBH beween us their veils seem to me what my M&S coat is to them. Not particularly significant in the greater scheme of things just a quirkiness we both have. (I am not disrespecting the importance of the veil to them but this is the level of importance it has in our friendship IYSWIM?).

Yet, my personal problem with the veil and if more and more women cover up more and more around me is this -

When I go to visit these friends who live in the town where most women are veiled on route through the town centre I often get jeered at by men and it is a really deeply horrible experience!

I strongly suspect that the men jeering feel it is OK seeing as I am 'asking for it' by having blue eyes, blonde hair (I am told this doesn't help) and wearing (modest) western clothing in... France - a secular Western country!

mathanxiety, your post is so full of contradictions I don't know where to start...

"They are the democratically elected government of the French people. Anyone who wants to object is welcome to object -- freedom of speech exists in France. They can be reproached by anyone."

yes, I know. This is the point I was making. What I am doing is objecting because, much like the French, I can. The question was a rhetorical one, which was a response to a previous post; you have taken it completely out of context.

""Plenty of people are living as part of the French community whilst waiting for their citizenship application to be approved. They would be thrown out." Why not? Nobody has an automatic right to live anywhere they choose, to move somewhere and stay there without restriction. They came to live in a country they obviously knew very little about. Yet, they want to become citizens of that country. It is up to them to choose how or whether they will accommodate themselves to the laws and mores of their country of choice."

My quote was in response to another poster asserting that no-one would be thrown out of France. I expressed no opinion on this, it's simply a statement of fact. You argue with yourself on that point.

"Veils, are in question here, i.e. religious symbols, not 'tents' or traditional costumes from any part of the world outside France. Traditional north African dress is not a religious symbol, nor are Irish dancing dresses. Hence, no ban."

No shit, sherlock this was the point I was making to another poster who said this was not about religion.

"To wear a symbol instead of openly debating the merits or otherwise of modest dress for women or the culture of secularism of any particular state is also to poke the idea of free speech in the eye."

Then later:

"You're making a statement when you wear the niqab in a country like France, not intellectually or rationally (again, counter to French culture and values) but with your chosen symbol. For much the same reasons, it is against German law to display Nazi symbols, wear Nazi uniforms, etc. Symbols speak."

So.. help me out, here... it's ok for Germany to ban Nazi symbols(which speak), because it's...free speech? No, hang on...what?

Free speech doesn't just refer to people you agree with, you know...

Please clarify your point of view; I am genuinely confused by your post.

"Yet, my personal problem with the veil and if more and more women cover up more and more around me is this -

When I go to visit these friends who live in the town where most women are veiled on route through the town centre I often get jeered at by men and it is a really deeply horrible experience!

I strongly suspect that the men jeering feel it is OK seeing as I am 'asking for it' by having blue eyes, blonde hair (I am told this doesn't help) and wearing (modest) western clothing in... France - a secular Western country!"

What you experience is totally unacceptable, teafortwo- do you really believe that denying citizenship to the husbands of those who wear the niqab will address this?

tethersend - No - I can't see it being a particularly successful plan. Firstly I know so many people who live in France without being citizens, secondly of course there is a chance the woman has, like my friend, chosen to dress in that way, thirdly another person other than the woman's husband could be forcing the clothing upon her and fourthly if you don't want woman to wear them anymore what about all the current French citizens who wear burkas and niqabs?

I really don't know what France should do.

What I do know is that there is a bloke who lives down the road from me and man is he cooool! He has the Nike trainers, a baseball cap in summer and a slight Parisian swagger as he walks. It over-whelmed me when I first saw him out with his wife (I presume). I kid you not she walks 10m behind him, head lowered in a white burka with netting over her eyes (this may have a special name - excuse me because I don't know it) and I find it very worrying. Maybe she is choosing to live in this way. Perhaps she has read up on de Beauvoir, Greer and Wolfe, spent her university years experimenting with different concepts, ideas and getting to know many different kinds of people, has enjoyed a gap year backpacking around India, had a successful and satisfying career and now after weighing up everything in life decided to marry Mr Cool and encourages him to walk infront of her while she shuffles behind. Or maybe like my stomach that turns, breath that stops and my stinging tear ducts tell me each time I see her there is a different much sadder story here. A story that along with my jeering experiences any Western politician who truly cared about the people who he or she represents, given a chance, would try to discourage in someway.

Totally agree, teafortwo- really good post.

Seeing a woman in the attire you describe evokes similar feelings in me.

The niqab is a signifier- it signifies a great deal- but banning it (hypothetically, I know this is not being proposed) does not remove what it signifies. The oppression you describe would not vanish with the niqab; especially if not wearing one was the state's, rather than the woman's decision.

I used to teach a beautiful muslim girl; she was stunning. One morning, she turned up for school in the full niqab; her brothers had decided that she must wear one so as not to inflame men (she told me this). She was in year 8. From then on, she wore it every day- it was heartbreaking; but what was heartbreaking was the control over her life her brothers had, and the way they oppressed her. The niqab signified this oppression; had I removed it from her, forcibly, would I have released her from their control? Of course not. I would then have been forcing my will on her, just as her brothers had. She would then have been oppressed by all of us.

There is nothing inherently oppressive about a piece of fabric; legislating against it is crazy. And some women do choose to wear it, whether or not we believe them or believe their reasons are valid, they should have the right to make that choice. The perceived (by the west) oppression it signifies should be questioned, and dealt with, regardless of faith.

Surely we, as a civilised, free and forward thinking society have the capability to address oppression in a better way?