French citizenship : Only if your wife isn't veiled

[nothingofthesort]

I can't figure out what to make of this. Men shouldn't get a say in how their wives dress isn't it? Doesn't this encourage the opposite?

'Obviously, you've never heard of the Nuremberg Laws, then..'

Part of Hitler's plan of genocide which was rooted in his dirty little mind long, long before he came to power.

Comparing Hitler and his policies to denying citizenship to men whose wives wear a burka - not just a veil, but a burka, not demanding they leave but denying citizenship, is IMO a cheap shot and disgusting.

Fair point, all religious symbols... Although I strongly suspect this was legislation targeted solely at veil-wearers.

No crucifixes, rosary beads around necks, Stars of David, yarmulkes, all overt religious symbols.

At public schools only.

The message being: do what you want outside of this.

Message here being: stay here on your residency permit or visa, but if your wife wears burka you cannot become French national.

And you're comparing this to genocide.

At this point it becomes like teaching a dog to read: a pointless endeavour.

Au revoir

Sunglasses are a fashion accessory, therefore permitted

expat, we only know that the Nuremberg Laws were part of a plan of genocide in retrospect...

At the time they were received in Europe in much the same way this proposal is.

"Section 4
Jews are forbidden to display the Reich and national flag or the national colours.
On the other hand they are permitted to display the Jewish colours. The exercise of this right is protected by the State."

I'm simply using this to criticise your assertion "don't like it, don't live there".

I think you are overreacting to perceived hyperbole. The similarities are there.

Sorry, expat, did you just flounce???

I have not once compared this law to genocide... please read my posts again. Your reaction is bizarre.

The vast majority of visible religious symbols in France are veils, and to pretend otherwise is, at best, naive.

The veil isn't banned on France.
You are not allowed to wear any religious symbols in school. What form they take is irrelevant.
Is this discussion going to go round in circles like this?

smallwhitecat, I do not respect the wearing of the veil. I strongly disagree with it- that's hardly the point.

I also disagree with a French law that denies citizenship to people because of what they wear. Yes, it reflects French culture. I think French culture is wrong. I do not respect that either.

Am muslim, I lived most of life in Europe, I have experienced first hand prejudice against muslims in France, The netherlands, Italy, switzerland, the UK.

And I think the french are entitled to stick to their guns on this one.

Because secularism is one on the pillars of the republican credo you pay allegiance to when you take up the citizenship and also because niqab is NOT a show of humble behaviour as requested by the Koran.
As much as I object to throwing kids out of school if they want to wear the veil, I find the full niqab revolting in as much as it "is a sign of subservience, of debasement". Never though I'd actually quote President Sarkozy one day, must admit there is no better formulation.

Am completely aghast about all the discourse on democracy and freedom of speech.
What is it then for these women? freedom to be objectified as a live political statement?

Ok fair enough they can stay if granted a residency permit as asylum seekers of whatever but integrated into the Nation as sharing a common will to live together?
You have got to be joking!
This is really taking PC too far!

"I find the full niqab revolting in as much as it "is a sign of subservience, of debasement""

slim, I agree with you. I just don't think banning it, or denying citizenship to the husbands of those who wear it goes any way to address this oppression of women- rather, it replaces one oppression with another and has the possibility of creating many 'martyrs' to the cause who wear the veil as an act of defiance. It makes no sense to me.

replaces one oppression with another?

But how?

Another plea I never ever thought I'd make....CoteDazur, please please we need you on this debate

A very interesting post slim. tethers It makes sense to me because I feel we need to send a very strong message. If people want to live as though they are in the middle-ages they are not ready to live in Western Europe. I believe hard and uncompromising messages are what we need. If I want to see opressed women I'll take a holiday to a 3rd world nation.

"societies have the right to define thier own values and expect their members to adhere to them - and deny membership to those who won't"

Yes, smallwhitecat- but this does not make them beyond reproach.

My mentioning the Nuremberg laws was to illustrate the inanity of expat's "don't like it, don't live there"; I have not compared France to Nazi Germany although I have mentioned similarities between this French legislation and certain tracts of the Nuremberg laws, which I concede could be a little reactionary. I don't think it is completely remiss of me to mention it though.

"If I want to see opressed women I'll take a holiday to a 3rd world nation."

Not France.

The only difference will be your agreement or otherwise. Is a woman who wants to wear the veil but is not allowed not oppressed? Or is the state 'doing it for her own good'? That is a very dangerous assumption, IMO.

your agreement on the issue