French citizenship : Only if your wife isn't veiled

[nothingofthesort]

I can't figure out what to make of this. Men shouldn't get a say in how their wives dress isn't it? Doesn't this encourage the opposite?

tethers My personal opinion is that it's a medieval religion which has no home in Western Europe. I understand of course that others will have different views, but my mind will not be budged on this issue.

I do agree with expat here when she says "if you don't like it, don't live there". I don't think I'd like Saudi Arabia and I certainly wouldn't want to live under their laws - so it's a no-brainer really.

The Jews were houded out of central Europe - but it wasn't because they were offensive, barbaric, misogynistic martyrs living in the 13th century.

teether, they are not banning women from wearing the veil, women wear the veil every day in France.

They are trying to stop political jihadist-in you face-fuck you-we are here to inflict maximum damage-dare to ban us- if you call yourself a democracy- kind of discourse.

IT IS ALL RETHORIC, wake up Europe!

You want to advance the cause of muslim women in the whole wide world, let muslims in Europe learn and abide by the rules of secularism and export them.

Riven please dont go we value your opinion.

silk horse your "medieval religion comment" is ill informed if not totally out of line.

this is a POLITICAL issue, not a religious one. Get your act together please.

"The Jews were houded out of central Europe - but it wasn't because they were offensive, barbaric, misogynistic martyrs living in the 13th century."

ROLFing at this... these (bar misogyny) were exactly the reasons cited by the Nazis to justify their persecution of the Jews.

"They are trying to stop political jihadist-in you face-fuck you-we are here to inflict maximum damage-dare to ban us- if you call yourself a democracy- kind of discourse."

So the answer is to..err.. ban them??? Not sure what you mean here slim... surely to ban the wearing of the veil (or deny citizenship to the husbands of those who wear it) would be playing into their hands?

Riven please don't leave the thread- your point about oppression being an attitude not a piece of cloth is an excellent one.

tether, the are talking about niqab not veil. Just like when they said that an ID photo is OK with a veil covering hair but showing the face.

Please don't try and appear to be candid. That's what i've been saying all along. ban the NIQAB.

My point remains valid if you replace the word 'veil' with the word 'niqab'.

Please don't try to be trite. I disagree with banning the NIQAB too. The only difference between the niqab and the veil is your opinion on whether or not it is acceptable dress.

tether, the discussion is about the niqab not the veil. That is what they are trying to legislate on.

Am not trying to prove am right and you are wrong.
I'm just trying to stay on course.

We have citizenship tests here I believe. To determine if someone is going to be able to fit in with our society. This is just more of the same and they have a perfect right to do so.

Think of it as flat sharing. If you need a flatmate you look for someone with similar habits don't you.

Riven, you say "I would take it off, get the citizenship then put it back on again". Not a good start to gain citizenship through dishonesty. They might actually be better off with someone who stuck to their beliefs.

However someone willing to take it off probably isn't so serious about it anyway and therefore less of a problem. If people wore them only because they liked the look it wouldn't be such an issue.

slim, the discussion had encompassed the wearing of the veil (and other religious symbols) in schools. I did not pluck it out of the air.

On my last post, I should have used the term 'niqab'; a mistake on my part.

I know what the French are trying to legislate on; please refrain from patronising me.

I hope that clears things up, and we remain on course

"why should french people be forced to leave their own country because of clothing laws?
Should a democratic Govt be allowed to dictate what women wear?"

It is Islam (or, rather, some people's interpretation of it) that is dictating what women wear.
To insist on wearing the veil, you are saying that your religion is more important that your country. Are you surprised that French politicians are non too impressed with this stance and say, quite logically, that they will deny that citizenship to their country because it is not valued.

The talk of a Govt dictating what women wear is humbug. This country dictates what we wear and no-one minds: we all have to dress with some decorum or you face prosecution for indecency. It's just that Islam has a bizarre notion of what counts as indecent.

"To insist on wearing the veil, you are saying that your religion is more important that your country"

I would say that for many people, their religion is more important than their country, fembear... should the state punish those who believe this? Is this a crime? That seems crazy.

"The talk of a Govt dictating what women wear is humbug"

-but they are. And so is ours. Our indecency laws are not, however, justified by a cod 'anti-oppression' stance.

Good article on indecency laws here btw- much of the law in this country deals with intention.

"it's the height of arraogance for any religious or cultural group to claim to trump that right."

But I'm not part of that religious and cultural group, and I still disagree with the proposition.

The views of this particular politician may not reflect the views of the nation. Who knows what a French referendum on the issue would show?

Just because something is law does not mean it reflects the norms and values of that society- and furthermore, even if it does, it does not make it 'right'. Until recently, the age of consent in Afghanistan was nine. Does it really matter if this reflects the norms and values of the people of Afghanistan? Isn't it just wrong?

Countries have the right to legislate any way they choose- but that legislation should be subject to criticism.

The wearing of the niqab is not being banned in France. Nobody is telling them to leave France.
I think it is important to integrate into the country you live in. It shouldn't have to change fro you, especially if you have chosen to live there.
Many Europeans find the wearing of the niqab offensive in that is dehumanises women; they cannot take it off in front of men they are not related to.
To many Europeans this is a very alien concept. What is wrong with trying to fit in?

I am aware that the niqab is not banned in France, nor is it a proposal to do so.

However, since France have identified the niqab as being a contravention of their society's norms and values, I won't exactly fall of my chair in surprise if an outright ban is proposed in a few years.

I believe this proposal puts the writing on the wall. And I believe it to be wrong.

Just as I abhor the views of the BNP, yet I believe they have a right to a voice in a free country; I want there to be things in society I disagree with.

fall off

"a bit angry that non-muslims are oppressing muslim women bu dictating their own values on to them."

This is exactly the point, riven. The veil represents un-French values. It is a highly visible symbol of a religion. The question the French government is asking is Do you embrace French values or not? The Fifth Republic is a profoundly secular state that has chosen, for many sound historical reasons, to adopt a very strict separation of church and state, and it is entitled to do this. The US, on the other hand, separates church and state (but permits the wearing of religious symbols in public schools, to give an example). Both states have the right to deal with the issues in their own way. They are sovereign states.

You have a choice to wear the veil and refuse French citizenship here. Nobody is being thrown out of France, nor is this contemplated right now. But if you are to reap the benefits (and there are many) of French (therefore EU) citizenship, the government rightly asks that you show your willingness to be French, to embrace Frenchness.

I haven't read the whole thread, but think it is a bit ironic that some people are up in arms about this topic. You just have to think about the 'freedoms' these women had in the countries they came from before settling in France.

If they don't like the French way of life, no one is forcing them to stay. They can stay in their home countries and have a very nice life.

"Both states have the right to deal with the issues in their own way. They are sovereign states."

So the (French) government can do whatever they like in the name of "French values" and are beyond reproach for doing so?

And other governments can do the same? North Korea anyone? (Before you pounce, I am not comparing Sarkozy to Kim Jong-Il, I am using it as an example to highlight the flawed logic of your argument)

That doesn't sound very democratic

And these "French values" are not subject to change? See my earlier post about my DP's experience of French educational values/culture. That changed.

Any thoughts on why traditional North West African dress is not legislated against? That doesn't appear to be particularly "French" either...

"Nobody is being thrown out of France"

Plenty of people are living as part of the French community whilst waiting for their citizenship application to be approved. They would be thrown out.

but its collective responsibility isn't it? you dont punish the families of criminals, do you? so why should the husbands of women who choose to wear a niqaab be penalised?

while i can see all the arguments above (though i dont agree with the sentiment) meaning that women applying for citizenship can not wear a niqaab i dont think its got fa to do with her husband, what about unmarried women are they going to start penalising their fathers next?

i think that the muslim community gets upset about these decisions as it does seem to be a gradual process of saying NO MUSLIMS HERE, first no scarfs in most schools, then law passed and no scarfs in any schools, no no niqaab if you want citizenship, or your husband does