Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

Madame, what is wrong with having a proper debate, if you really believe that an unborn baby is 'just a bunch of cells' then you must be either really daft or very poorly informed (my own sone looked suspisciosly like a real human being when he was born!)

'Bollocks to the lot of you' just isnt helpful.

Oh look, pro-lifers being po-faced, didactic, judgemental and treating women like they are too stupid to make decisions about their own body and health.

No change there then.

In response to the OP, I say good for these women and I sincerely hope they succeed.

well wantto, this whole positing "that a democratic country must know what best" is so utterly specious.In the UK we still get things very wrong so its a stupid argument. The US is a democracy, and abortion is still illegal in some states.

Any pregnancy is the domain of the mother, as it occurs in her body. Any agency, state sanctioned or otherwise that declares to the contrary negates the rights of the adult.

I am cross because its like gender politics having fallen off the agenda so utterly over the last few years, and all our daughters are taught is that is fine to gyrate and perform sexually, allow their teenage boyfriends to film them and post sexual acts on youtube or on their phones...

And if they get pregnant as a result of our collective failure to educate and inform them, they are annihilated as human beings.

And that some bundle of cells is more important then they are. Right. fantastic message.

My son at six weeks gestation was just a bundle of cells. At 40 weeks gestation he was a much wanted baby. It would not have made me an evil baby killer if I had decided to terminate that pregnancy early on.

Ironic that people are recommending adoption in the Irish context - what is it, a fortnight since the child abuse scandal in the Catholic church in Ireland was exposed? That nuns had been selling babies to the Yanks?

The Catholic church, which used to hold that abortion was OK up to 'quickening' (when you can feel the baby move) now apparently feels the embryo or foetus is sacred - but merrily allowed hundreds of its own priests, FFS, to abuse actual live children. And is still hiding the identities of abusers, refusing to own up fully, protecting the paedophiles from the law.

The RC church has no moral right at all to talk about the welfare of babies or children ? or women, pregnant or not.

As for Ireland being self-governing, only up to a point - when they took the EU shilling, they agreed to the primacy of EU law. As did we. (I'm all up for a debate about the lack of democracy in the EU, btw - but as it stands, member states are not autonomous.)

Ahem,
Whether you agree with it or not, this is how it is.
Abortion dose happen in Ireland, as far as I remember from school, one of my peers put her self in hospital attempting it with a coat hanger.

And hear are some interesting FACTS

"...Illegal abortion in the UK

Before the 1967 Abortion Act was passed most women who wanted to end their pregnancies would have had to resort to self-induced or back street abortions.

Accurate figures for women injured by illegal abortion before 1967 are not available, as many women would not admit that their injuries resulted from abortion for fear of incriminating themselves and the illegal abortionist. In 1959, however, it was estimated by a parliamentary committee that the treatment of abortion accounted for as many as 20% of genealogical admissions within the NHS. In 1966 the Home Office estimated that 100,000 abortions were being carried out each year. Other estimates put this figure at 150,000.

Widespread injury and infection often led to infertility and other permanent health problems, and death by septicemia (blood poisoning) or hemorrhage (bleeding) was not uncommon. In 1966 up to 40 women a year in the UK died from the complications of unsafe abortion."
www.efc.org.uk/Foryoungpeople/Factsaboutabortion/Unsafeabortion

Wanttodomyjob

"Real choices would be equal responsibility between the mother and the father,"

Who says the father of my unwanted baby didn't take responsibility?
Who do you think stayed with DD whilst I went to the other end of the country for an abortion.
Who do you think paid for it?. Yes, it was free on the NHS but they don't give you free busfare or accommodation, or meals, whilst you are being treated like shit there.
I didn't dream up the money.

You have no idea do you?

Most people dont, but then why base your opinion on fact, when you can base it on nonsense.

In answer to the OP, I wish them good luck. The debate on abortion is long running in Ireland, and needs to be kept up. Attitudes are changing all the time - particularly towards the Catholic Church's hold over our state - and science is progressing too. As pointed out in an interesting Irish tv show last night, women who have had rare disorders diagnosed in their pregnancy, and who know their babies won't survive are still being denied abortions in Ireland and are expected to carry on with the pregnancy. It is rare, but it does happen, and while I wouldn't personally contemplate abortion, I would seriously reconsider a pregnancy if the foetus was fatally deformed. I mean that the baby would not survive after birth. It was only last year that a young woman in care was denied travel to the UK to end such a pregnancy, and it was that poor girl who spoke out on tv last night. I can only imagine that it's a heartbreaking, devastating thing to go through, and to think that Irish obstetricians won't - and can't - do anything to help women in these situations is pretty scary.

Adoption.

Oh yes, that's really easy, why didn't I think of that.
Have the baby and then give it away innit.

Just like that.

No one will ever know.

FFS. Anyone who says that is thicker than thick.

Tell me, what do I say to DD, what do I say to my neighbours, what do I say to everyone in my small town?

As an example, what if the woman in Boots, who I've known since I was pg with DD congratulates me?

So I say:
I'm not keeping the baby, I'm giving it away?

Say nothing, and never go in there again, knowing she's bound to chat about it with other people, as it is a small town.

Say nothing, but go in again, and hope she doesn't talk to my daughter about having a sibling, as I'm not keeping the baby?

Really simple, the adoption thing isn't it?

And that doesn't even take into account how I feel, or my family, or the father, or anyone.

Would the, 'oh, just adopt', folk, really think about it?

"'Bollocks to the lot of you' just isnt helpful"

Maybe it isn't. But then neither is telling a woman that her foetus has more rights than her, or telling her that she has to have the baby regardless of her feelings, or telling that she can have it adopted when it is born (yeah, because that is the only problem isn't it...., not to mention all the babies/children ALREADY in care, let's have a baby, give it up for adoption where it will maybe be wanted, or maybe be left in care homes all it's life) or that she has to travel to have an abortion!

Because that is more fucking helpful isn't it!

I have 2 very much wanted dcs. But when I had a contraception failure when dc2 was 5months old, I was devastated to find my pregnant!

So much so that I was found by a friend, rocking on my lounge floor in shock. So much so that I now know that throwing up from shock isn't the myth I thought it was.

Abortion wasn't a choice for me, it was a given. My previous pregnancies made me very well aware that I could not do it again, as did 2 c sections.

My husband fully supported me. Adoption WAS NOT an option, as it is the pregnancy aspect that I fear. The Pre Eclampsia, spd, carpal tunnel, constant sickness, inability to eat etc. Another section.

Not to mention the antenatal depression that I am sure I experienced while pregnant (wasn't able to have termination til 9 weeks as the clinics didn't do them over xmas) that completely ruined my dc2s first Christmas.

Not to mention that fact that I wanted to crash my car to induce a miscarriage & the only 2 things stopping me was the thought that I may have left my dcs motherless. Or that I barely had the car to myself (without dc2 in it).

You cannot throw adoption in as an option! Because in many cases it just is not as simple as that! When will you realise that?

But still you say that my foetus had more rights than me? Bollocks!

But still you say that my foetus had equal rights to me? Bollocks!

differentnameforthis if you ever stand for govement I intend to vote for you, muglwamp my hat is off to you.
Abortion is something that if you could do anything elce other then that, you would.

Well I am not surprised by the many people who disagree with my views, but they are shared by many many people.

I still think that adoption is far preferable than abortion, especially late abortion. yes it causes pain to the mother but a lot of painful things happen in life and the end (the mother having the 'least' consequences) does not justify the means.

Just because someone feels that abortion is in their own best interests does NOT make it right!!!

Oh so now because there is a lot of pain in life, we have to add to that do we?

I was unwanted, spent 18yrs of my life living with, but being rejected by my mother! No way was I going to bring an unwanted/unplanned baby into that!

I lived a life of pain, I'd had enough! And you know what, shows you have no idea, because abortion, emotionally is fucking painful!

And my 'least consequences' are anxiety, heart palpitations, constant fear to sleep with my dh in case I fall pregnant again!

DO NOT GO ON SPOUTING THAT ABORTION CAUSES THE LEAST CONSEQUENCE!

You may not agree with it, but believe me it comes with a whole lot of consequences for the majority of women!

Differentname, I am truly sorry that you experienced a lot of pain in your life, although i have not posted a lot about my own life experiences on here, I most definately DO know about pain.

To say that people who are against abortion (particularly this notion of all women being entitled to abortion 'on demand') are lacking in compassion or life experience is quite simply a way of trying to discount or belittle their views. It is because I feel a great deal of compassion, for both women and the babies they create, that I am against abortion in all but the direst or circumstances. i do not think it solves a damn thing. But they are just my views and I cannot compel anyone to come round to my way of thinking, i know.

Suerly if you were living in fear of falling pregnant again, to the extent of being mentally unwell, you would choose to be sterilised? Or your DP to have a vasectomy???

Adoption also has life-long consequences for the child. Some people do OK, others never get over the feeling of being rejected. Or grow up in care, shuffled around foster homes, being rejected again and again - many children in care are removed from their placements with no warning to them again and again, some more than a dozen times. It's particularly hard for severely disabled children btw.

When we were trying to trace my mother's biological mother, the detective we used pointed out back in the days when my mother was born, adoption was society's punishment for women who transgressed. 'You wicked girl, having sex outside marriage, we will force you to go through with the pregnancy and then take your baby away because you deserve the physical and emotional pain.'

I, for one, do not want to go back to those days. (And I'm not impressed by the 'but your mother would never have been born if abortion had been legal' argument, it's a million to one chance that any of us individuals were born given the unlikelihood of any particular sperm getting through to the egg and any particular fertilised egg making it through to a live birth.)

We'll my dr refused to sterilize me because I was reacting to a traumatic birth (elec c section)! He said not till dd was 1 yr would he even consider a referral (practice policy before you suggest I should have someone else). I fell preg at 5mth. dd is now 16mth & I am waiting for an appointment. Privately, $3000++

Vasectomy on my very hospital phobic dh, 7yr wait list on public system (in Oz) or $2000+.

Money we do not have.

I didn't say you didn't know pain, you don't understand the pain that an unwanted pregnancy can cause. I wanted to crash my car to miscarry. (only reason I didn't was because I was scared of the possibility of it going wrong & leaving my dcs motherless) You see, I didn't to have an abortion, but I wanted a baby less.

Why can people not understand that just because you have children, you don't want I was in a very dark, very bad place this time last year. In all honesty, I have NO idea how I survived it!

No one had any right to tell me that I should have my baby. If anyone had forced me to carry on with the pregnancy, there is absolutely nothing to guarantee I would be typing this, because I may well have crashed my car & died!

"i do not think it solves a damn thing'

We'll there, you are WRONG! Or was my huge sense of relief when I woke, nothing?

Was the time from my termination - sickness free, depression free, able to sleep, able to eat, able to function for my baby & school age child- was all that nothing?

Like I said, I cannot tell you what I would have done if I was forced to keep on with the pregnancy.

I certainly wouldn't be sharing my story here, feeling mentally well. Happily looking forward to my dc2, 2nd Christmas. Enjoying time with my dc1 as she stays up a little later watching Tv & sharing popcorn with me.

I would be in a dark place! Looking after a child that perhaps I didn't want, a child I resented. A child I hated. A child who deserved better than to be born into a world where it's mother's first thoughts were 'I don't want this, I cannot do it'

You say you have compassion, I don't think you do, sorry! Because a compassionate person wouldn't be telling women that they HAVE to have babies they do not want/cannot have.

I haven't had an abortion differentnameforthis, but just want to give you a pat on the back.

I'm regularly astonished by the lack of compassion shown by pro-lifers for an adult cogniscent (sp) woman with a life, a career, depends, problems, financial restriction.... your average bugger's muddle,, and YET, SO much compassion shown to a cluster of cells/foetus. It is at best illogical and a worst, tbh, imvho, the sign of a low emotional quotient.

The difference, as far as i can see it, between people who are pro abortion and those anti, is that those who are anti have compassion for the unborn children as well as the mother. the two are not mutually exclusive.

I do not think any woman should be compelled to have children she does not want, but the answer to that lies with using effectice contraception, surely?

And yes, I am well aware that contraception does fail but if you really really dont want a baby then take steps to avoid another pregnancy. be proactice, either use a dcent method of contraception and avoid sex on fertile days or use two methods (I have myself in the past where a pregnancy would have been totally unacceptable and even now at 35 I have a friend who uses both the pill and condoms as she NO WAY wants kids)

The problem i have with the abortion on demand lobby is that they seem to believe that women get pregnant with no say in it and no control, but in this day and age this is simply not the case.

ps, i've always thought that the adoption route is a head in the clouds 'answer'. Handing over a baby rather than having a termination is signing up for a lifetime's worth of distress...

but i've said all this on rollercoaster a million times. you can't argue or reason with pro-lifers...