Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

Is it not the case that in the days before abortion was available in England, child murder was more common? This seems to have been the case in Sweden. Would one not think that child abuse and failure to bond would be more common in the case of an unwanted child? So might not forcing the woman to bear the child to term just prolong the suffering? I know adoption has been suggested- but an awful lot of adoptions breaks down and an awful lot of adopted children have suffered badly as they grew up.

If you don't like abortion, don't have one. Simple.

btw, on foetal development... the umbilical cord isn't fully formed until week 11, the placenta fully active until week 14, at week 12 the foetus is just 8cm long. While someone who is happy to be pregnant may think of the foetus at this stage as a baby, it ain't really, not in objective terms. I was thrilled to see ds on the 12 week scan, but tbh he wasn't a baby with full perception and full human rights, he was a much-wanted potential baby. And something like 1/5 pregnancies miscarry.

Nothing is certain until the baby is born, IMO. Then he or she is a real human being with a separate existence to the mother, although still very dependent (given human beings are born neonate i.e. at a much earlier stage of development than other primates, because we walk upright and a fully developed baby would get stuck).

if you don't like abortion, don't have one.

HEAR HEAR.

Cory that is an interesting point about child murders....

I think the problem with abortion is that the "supply" of adopted children is higher than the "demand" for children to be adopted.

Otherwise ShriekingHarpy I agree with everything else you said.

This is the weird thing, pro-life and pro-choice (with some exceptions) basically want the same thing.

The problem is that pro-life comes across as wanting no abortions at all

And pro choice comes across as wanting abortions right up to the last minute for no real reason.

There are people that believe these things, however they appear to be in the minority, at least on MN.

When I think everyone would be happy with abortions when needed, and better support and options.

Grr, I was meant to type "I think the problem with adoption" not abortion.

I'm not sure if the 'supply' of adoptable children is higher than the demand. There are children who have 'baggage' of a health/psychological/emotional nature (or come with siblings as a 'package') that makes them unappealing to some, though -- these are mostly older children who are in care for various reasons, with parental rights terminated. But lots of prospective parents have travelled to the far corners of the earth to adopt children because there are too few available for adoption in Ireland (think this is also the case in the US). Many spend years on waiting lists. I think there is definitely a home waiting for the majority of babies and young children who might be placed for adoption

Cory, I believe the body of research available at the moment says that although STEP PARENTS are more likely to abuse or murder a child than natural parents, this does not apply to adoptive parents as it is a very different dynamic and in fact its been found that adoptive parents are less likely to abuse than either natural parents or step parents.

I am on the pro change side, but still thought that could do with clearing up!

pro CHOICE LOL!

(but also pro-change, bus drivers and shops should always have change of whatever legal tender I happened to be carrying, down with 'right change only")

salbysea Thu 17-Dec-09 17:16:06
"Cory, I believe the body of research available at the moment says that although STEP PARENTS are more likely to abuse or murder a child than natural parents, this does not apply to adoptive parents as it is a very different dynamic and in fact its been found that adoptive parents are less likely to abuse than either natural parents or step parents."

I wasn't actually suggesting that. But an adoption breaking down means a child spending time in foster care- where abuse is not that rare.

Atm it is just about possible to find good enough adoptive parents for the children who need to be adoptive. But as every SW knows, you have to be very picky because adopted children do bring their own problems. If the number of children needing to be adopted rose astronomically, how likely is it that we could find suitable parents for them all?

and when family situations with natural parents break down it also often results in foster care

so I'm not sure I get where you're goin with that one? should no kids be born at all in case they end up in foster care?

I think that at the moment the problem with finding adoptive parents is to do with the age and the problems the kids needing adoptive parents come with, isnt it mostly older children who cant be placed? The babies in foster care who've been taken off their parents and do end up being adopted later are often so surrounded by red tape that its years before the adoption goes through. This wouldnt be the case with babies given up for adoption.

If there were suddenly an abundance of new babies up for adoption I cant imagine there'd be a shortage of people signing up hoping to be chosen for them.