Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

Not pro-abortion, pro choice. HUGE difference, and terminology matters.

Why would I have compassion for soemthing I do not beleive to be a person? Not all pro-choicers think the same on this issue, but personally for me, an unformed foetus is nothing more than a potential life, it is not the same thing as an actual life, a real baby.

You can use decent contraception properly and still get pregnant, no method is foolproof. You can be sterilised and still get pregnant, it happens. Nobody is saying that a woman has "no say and no control", it is the pro-lifers who seek to take control away from us.

Maggie I find that you cannot reason with the pro abortion lobby either!!

The womans right to choose is seen as sacred.

No one and nothing else matters in the face of that.

I think bollocks to you all is about right actually.
It is hypocritical to turn a blind eye to women going to a neighbouring country for abortion.

Pro abortion? What a strange term
Nobody wants to have an abortion!

Yes. Their numbers are dwindling. There was a time when nobody would dare say I am pro-choice. Now, if anybody says I'm pro-life, there's a bit on an awkward silence. Well, that is the case in south dublin circles I mix in anyway. Can't really 'poll' for more rural areas.

A womans right to control her own body should be sacred, unfortunately thats not the case, and never has been, especially in Ireland.

Tell me this, pro-life/anti-women people, what gives you the right to decide what happens in my uterus?

There's no such thing as a pro-abortion lobby. You see, twisting the agenda of the pro-choice to make it seem like they were forcing people to have abortions!!!

This is what your crowd need to do to now. The church is losing its grip on the flock. The flock can think.

Every woman should have the right to choose whether or not to fall pregnant in the first place, of course.

But if you enter into a sexual relationship then you surely understand that a baby may be the result?

To me LIFE is sacred (and I am coming from a non religious point of view) and once created, unless, like i have previously said, the mothers life is literally in danger (which if you look at the stats is a tiny minority of cases these days)then any 'solutions' to an unwanted pregnancy SHOULD take into consideration the fact that there are two, completely seperate people involved.

Yes you can argue til the cows come home that a fetus is not a person and therefore not entitled to any consideration at all, but the fact is that a fetus can has awareness of the extrenal world, can feel pain, distress etc etc very very early on.

We currently have women citing 'would interfere with studies' as a valid reason for having abortions, LATE abortions, qhereby the baby actually has to be killed in utero orior to induction of labour, does anyone think, really think that this is a humane or civilised way of being in the 21st century?!!

yes mrsruffallo, what women in this situation want is to be 'not pregnant'. NObody wakes up and thinks, hmmm fancing dialling for a pizza and an abortion today'.

but the pro-lifers boil it right down to that. They willfully misinterpret it to make it look as sinister as they can.

If they inhabit the same body how can they be two entirely seperate people?
Who is going to raise the child?
I can see why, if you are young and studying, then your ability to provide for the baby would be minimal.
So who is going to raise the child?
The church?

You seem to be confused between your opinion and actual fact. There is no proof, no way of proving what does or does not constitute life, and personhood. Better minds than yours have debated it for years, and there is no consensus.

A 12 week foetus cannot survive on its own. It is plainly not a "seperate person" as it is not seperate. It is wholly dependent on someone else. Now answer my question, if I have a 12 week foetus that I do no want to survive inside my body, who are you to tell me that I can't remove it? What gives you that right?

And I don't think you understand much about late abortions either. Humane and civilised? Is it humane and civilised to force women to become mothers, to bear unwanted children? Is it humane to prevent a woman controlling her own body and life? Is it civilised to force your own morality onto other people, when for you it is a theoretical position?

Your opinion, your morals, your beliefs. Tell me why they are more valid than mine, when it comes to what I do with my body?

ha ha mrsruffallo. until relatively recently the doctors and nurses in the church -run hospitals treated unmarried mothers like whores whilst they were going through labour. but somebody made a point earlier, yes, they would be happy enough to snatch the baby away and give it to a married couple who hadn't been 'blessed' by God yet (with a child).

That is going back 25+ years though.

Pooexplosion

I haven't said my beliefs are more valid, but they are different beliefs and I have the right to express them.

I am not forcing my morality onto anyone, generally speaking I do not express them as, like I said, the prevailing 'wind' is that a pro-life stance is not in keeping with the current feminist perspective.

I do not stand outside abortion clinics, and I have never given an opinion on abortion outside of a very close circle of friends who in the main have a similar view.

I do understand about late abortions as I have, as a student Nurse, been part of a care team which looked after a woman who has undergone this horrific event. To this day I cannot forget the look on her face afterwards , the pain and terror was just horrendous. I do not think she really understood beforehand actually what was going to be done/ to happen, and this is another issue i have with the abortion laws we have, in that women are offered a very sanitised or in some inctances virtually no information about what an abortion actually involves.

I do not have a 'great mind' I would never suggest that i do, and as you say the debate on personhood (what constitutes etc)continues on. What I am basing my opinion on at the present time is the facts (what abortion is and why it is done) and my instinct as a human being as to what is right and wrong.

I know Maggie, I can't believe that wasn't so long ago.

But you would like to stop people haveing abortions for reasons you think are not good enough? How is that not imposing your morals and opinions on others?
Granted you are not in a position to effect any change, but you would if you could, wouldn't you? Thats my point.

Throughout this thread you have repeatedly stated what is obvious, what you deem to be unarguable fact, scientific proof, and on these matters you are simply not qualified to say. You cannot determine these things based on what you deem to be self evident.

Maggie - not just giving babies away, the nuns in the unmarried mothers homes used to sell them.

And they pretended to be morally superior to these poor women. Makes you sick.

Pooexplosion

I am not sure what you are saying?
A fact is a fact, i am not saying that i am responsible for determining the facts, I am not a scientist!

I am giving an opinion, based on my understanding of the facts (ie the facts of what abortion is etc) and my response to them, in the context of the society we live in.

No one has to agree with me (although many do- even if they are too anxious to speak up)
but some thing are facts and cannot be argued with.

What 'facts' have I given which you feel are not based on evidence then?

"but the answer to that lies with using effectice contraception, surely?"

Mini pill, excl breastfeeding & a condom effwective enough for you?

Your facts are just opinions though....

You say "t is not correct to say there is only one life however, science and common sense would agree with that, surely?

The developing 'fetus/embryo' has completely seperate DNA, heartbeat from (I think) as early as four or five weeks. It is also potentially able to sustain life from as little as 21 weeks, albeit with a great deal of medical help"

Thats your opinion, not a fact. I don't agree with you, many don't.

And you say "Yes you can argue til the cows come home that a fetus is not a person and therefore not entitled to any consideration at all, but the fact is that a fetus can has awareness of the extrenal world, can feel pain, distress etc etc very very early on."

Not facts, opinions. You see where I'm going now. You think your opinions are fact. They are not. You cannot prove any of them, and many experts disagree with you.

here you say "To me LIFE is sacred (and I am coming from a non religious point of view) and once created, unless, like i have previously said, the mothers life is literally in danger (which if you look at the stats is a tiny minority of cases these days)then any 'solutions' to an unwanted pregnancy SHOULD take into consideration the fact that there are two, completely seperate people involved."

Not a fact, again, an opinion. And sacred but non religious? I don't think so, the word is about as religious as it gets, if you don't mean religiously you need a better word.

You don't have any facts, yet you assert you do, you can't tell the difference.

Again I am going to ask you to clarify what of the above 'facts' are not 'facts in the sense that they are scientifically explored and concluded.

We now know that a fetus DOES have completely seperate DNA from its mother.

We now know that a fetus does have a heartbeat from a very early stage, this is because we have seen it and heard it using sonographs.

We do know, that as early as 20/21 weeks some fetus can and will survive, with medical help, we know this because it has happened and been observed and recoreded.

None of this is opinion because it has been established as scientifically proven fact.

Of course some people still think the world is FLAT lol and that is their OPINION lol!

In fact having just checked in order to get my 'facts' right, a heartbeat can be detected as early as 6 weeks pregnant in terms of LMP but from date of conception it is only four weeks.

For my whole sexual life (20yrs) I have never had unprotected sex, except for when I was TTC.

At 16 I used the pill & condoms, until my relationship with my then bf (now dh) became solid. After having dc1, I went back to the pill. I came off to conceive dc2.

I have never had so much as a scare in that time. Not even a minuscule doubt to worry me into thinking I could be. I took responsibility for 20 years. At times when I thought the pill may fail (antibiotics) we abstained, or used an additional method!

I asked to be sterilized at my c section for dc2. I was refused, with them saying that it was effective, everything too swollen etc. Not guaranteed to work.

I asked my GP at 3 weeks post op (with an infection in my scar) = no, not till 1yr. I asked him at 6 weeks check = not til 1 yr.

Incredulously, I asked him after my termination = not til 1 yr.

Is that OK? Did I do all I could to make sure I didn't bring any unwanted children into this world?

I don't care what you think, you put my foetus's needs above mine. You make my foetus more important them me. You would rather I was living in a dark depressed state, raising a child, that I resent. You know that mother's who resent their child is more likely to hurt them don't you?

But it's OK, because in time I would learn to love it, right? I would bond, right?

We'll what if I didn't? And what if one day that baby, my school aged child & my by now 1yr old pushed me too far? In a cloud of depression?

In a dark depressed state, what do YOU think I would/could have done?

3 children, in a depressed state, desperate for sleep, peace, understanding....all the time resenting a defenceless baby? Healing from a section?

You have no idea what you are putting on a woman when you start saying she has no rights in comparison to her foetus - and yes, that IS what you are saying!

And I have no fight left in me now, so I will make this my last post to you, because there is no point having a battle of compassion with someone who has none!

To those who have sent supportive messages, thank you!

"does anyone think, really think that this is a humane or civilised way of being in the 21st century"

Is forcing a woman to go ahead with a pregnancy she doesn't want a "humane or civilised way of being in the 21st century"?

Oh these people go an don about being humane, compassionate, civilised, but it's strange they have none of those feelings for the woman involved.
And as if anyone isn't pro life. Just call yourselves anti abortionists, much clearer