Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

And I see it as a human rights issue, that all people should have the right to autonomy and that they, and they alone, should be allowed to decide what they can and can't do with their body.

And therefore I don't believe that any country should be able to legislate against abortion or be allowed to prevent their people from travelling abroad to access such services,anymore than they should be allowed to legalise slavery or torture,without being challenged.

We can rank women's distress worldwide if we want to, but I'm not sure a queueing system is the way forward. Different women can take action to remedy the wrongs that are immediate in their own culture.

Irish women aren't literally attacked for unwanted pregnancies. The law though indicates a culture where young girls who get pregnant, particularly outside urban areas, are put under intolerable mental pressure.

Having to sneak out of the country, provide excuses, come up with medical references, get the abortion within medical time limits etc.: these things cause unreasonable distress to someone already distressed.

The case of Ann Lovett's death in Granard in 1984 did bring about some attitude changes, but many of those cultural changes that were supposed to have taken place in the 80s and 90s were not as real as they first appeared.

As it happens I am deeply personally opposed to abortion, but want other women to be able to make choices in an environment less tinged with fear and disruption than the one faced by young women here.

The 'condom train' changed women's lives in Ireland immeasurably for the better even though it was a case of once-off activism on an issue not top of the world list.

Sorry if I'm ranting by the way. I have worked a lot on stuff relating to Article 41 of the constitution, and yesterday's ruling that lesbian families are not recognised as families by the state has rattled me I think.

Mayor, there is a huge irony isn't there that the state declares the family centred on one mother 'that without which the common good cannot be achieved' and yet a family with two
mothers doesn't count.

Now I am ranting and hijacking.
I need to lie down ...

More stuff here on the practical problems for the women who travel to London and need to find accommodation as well as the price of flights, time off work [[http://womensgrid.freecharity.org.uk/?p=2896 etc]

I hope they are successful too.

Let's not forget, it was only through legal challenges like this that contraceptives were made legal in Ireland - and not that long ago either.

I don't think abortion should be illegal.

However I think that the Irish should be allowed to make their own laws. The Irish electrate have the right to the opinon that abortion is murder.

I suppose that staunch catholics would argue that the unborn child is innocent has rights as well. I disagree with extreme anti abortionist, but I respect the rights of the Irish people to self governent.

People who actually live in Ireland have the right be the ballot box to change things.

I just feel that abortion is wrong. Perhaps in some cases, like the X case or those women who are oobjecting in Strasbourg, it should be allowed, jhowever, I feel that legalising abortion in Ireland would open the floodgates to women using abortions as a form of contraception.

It has been brought to referendum twice and the Irish people said no.

Women do have the right to travel; or am I mistaken?

Tinsel, are you Irish and/or living in Ireland? Sorry to be a bit stupid but I assumed you were at first and now I'm not sure if I've read your posts properly.

I'm not sure that there is evidence that women use abortions instead of contraception in countries where both are readily available but I'm happy for someone else to provide evidence to back this up .

"I suppose that staunch catholics would argue that the unborn child is innocent has rights as well."
well the rights of the unborn child are recognised in irish law and has a constitutional footing as well. A recent case even suggested that these rights are the equal of the mother or any other person and that these rights are in no way diminished by the fact that they are still in the womb.
As i said it's going to be a real headache for the irish legislature if they are successfull as it will mean another referendum.

I'm fairly sickened when I heard references to the fact that abortion should be kept illegal because of anything to do with the Catholic Church. I think Ireland has lost it's claim to that with the revaluations that the country stood by whilst children were raped, humiliated and tortured by members of this Church. Catholic country - what shite

The whole ridiculousness of being all smug about face in saying we're such a ridiculous country because abortion is illegal (small print we sneak them out to that evil neighbour of ours and leave many of them uncared for and emotionally scared instead)

I feel strongly about this, and yes I live in Ireland

Ladidafi

there is a lot of evidence that if abortion is made readily available then there will be more unwanted pregnancies, ie less women will be proactive in preventing pregnancies as the societal and cultural consequences are so much less.

Staistics

last year approx 46% of women having abortions used NO contraception (so not talking contraceptive failure here)

8% have NEVER used contraception

48% have had at least one abortion previously.

I am not a scientist or sociologist but to me these statistics do speak for themselves.

Myself, i am pro giving women the choice to have access to safe and effective contraception, and providing a termination only if the mothers mental or physical health is in GRAVE danger.

I hope Ireland sticks with its current law myself.

Thanks for that wantto, to you mind me asking where those stats are from ?UK?

It's only because it's a Catholic country. They don't even believe in contraception, never mind abortion. I think those views are out-dated and, frankly, immoral. A woman should have the right to choose, after all it will be left to her to bring up the child, and if it's not wanted then better not to have it. All the relgious stuff gets in the way of common sense if you ask me. Or even if you don't. Rant over. As you were.

hi ladida
Those stats are from the US, but if you look at info produced by BPAS (not pro-lifers!) then their own info says much the same thing albeit not as easy to interpret.

I am putting the point across as someone who themselves had an 'unplanned'pregnancy due to poor use of birth control, but I always accepted that if i made a life i would not terminate. To me its seems a simple enough stance??

What's simple about it?

The question has been democratically decided by referendum in Ireland. And democracy is a good thing, non? Ironically, one reason why it's possible to severely restrict abortion in Ireland is the fact that it's legal, safe and available in the UK to anyone who wants one. The UK provides the 'out' that enables Irish voters to vote against it on moral grounds (which they're entitled to do -- you don't have to write a reasonable philosophical essay in order to cast a vote), with the understanding in the back of everyone's mind that any woman who wants an abortion can travel to get one. If abortion was illegal or severely restricted in the UK, then Ireland would have a very heated debate and the outcome would be hard to predict.

the 13 year old would fall into two of those statistics because she would not be using contraception as she would not have been expecting to be raped.

I don't think its up to the Irish to choose this at the ballot box. This is a woman's reproductive right and as others have said this is also a class issue.

Stupidity, ignorance and misogyny are not good enough reasons to be allowed to vote against this.

Europe's abortion rules from 2007 shows the variations

mathanxiety - good point about UK providing an 'out' for Irish voters

I disagree with "if abortion is made readily available then there will be more unwanted pregnancies" as an argument for restricting abortion access

How do you know the stats are correct for unwanted pgs when abortion isn't allowed?
I doubt many women admit to illegal abortions or travel abroad for abortion

Simple- because, barring rape and genuine contraceptive failure (approx 5 ish %) then no women NEEDS to allow herself to become pregnant. And if she does make the decision either to not use contraception or to use it badly (I am guilt myself) then surely it should be with the knowledge that she may well become pregnant- and is willing to either have a child therefore or give it up for adoption etc.

I know this is a deeply unfasshionable view but to me it seems obvious.

Good for the three women. And boo to the anti-abortionists who think they get to choose what someone else does with their body. If you don't like abortions, don't have one!

I think the abortion laws in Ireland are archaic. The church has far too much power in that country and look how much good it's done

Are we really going into a 'pro life' versus 'pro choice' debate again, on MN?

Shall we bash a few gays and burn a few witches while we're at it?

Good for them.

I hate, hate, hate (and yes, it's a strong word but I feel it) anti choicers.

Women should always have control over their bodies.
It disgusts me that any country, particularly a first world country doesn't allow women a choice.

i think you have to be either ok with abortion or not, it either is allowed or it isn;t

saying it's morally ok if the baby is a product of rape or abuse, but not if the mother had forgotten that antibiotics interfered with the pill seems wrong to me

the end result in both cases is a terminated pregnancy, terminated due to the wishes of the mother

it;s either ok to terminate or not

and i think it has to be ok, and the rights and wishes and needs of the mother are paramount

it is morally reprehensible to deny women the right to end a pregnancy without travelling to a different country

access to safe, legal and local termination seems a fundamental human right to me

Can I just throw something else into the mix? I am married to an Irish man, and for a time we considered living in Ireland. One of the reasons we don't, is because I suffer very (and I do mean very) badly with hyperemesis in pregnancy. With my second child, it was touch and go as to whether the doctors were going to ask my husband's permission to terminate (I was unconscious at the time). I am not planning on any more biological children, but I was concerned about what would happen if I was living in Ireland and did find myself pregnant. Does the law in Ireland allow for termination in these circumstances? I wouldn't choose to terminate, but if it became necessary? We couldn't get a straight answer when we enquired.

but Edam, like it or not, a pregnancy does involve two lives not just one, so we should as a society do everything humanely possible to deter people from having unwanted pregnancies surely. In my mind part of this is having a fair and compassionate law wherby people in genuine need can still access abortion, but it it not seen as a 'right'.

There are many things we do not have a 'right' to do with our bodies anyway, so none of us, man or women ever has complete choice, do we?