Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

I think the point made by LetThereBeRock: "two beings inhabiting one body can not have equal say, therefore imho the owner of the body, not the one 'borrowing' it for a while gets to decide what is done with her body" is an important one, that often gets overlooked.

Philosophically speaking, it's the age-old human question of where does one draw the line. If an argument is made for abortion for any particular reason such as the risk of maternal death or conception by rape/incest, then in my opinion all and any arguments against abortion fail. Beyond that, all I would say is that most arguments against abortion seem to me to be made by people who appear to have no idea what it could be like to be pregnant and suffering. (For avoidance of doubt, I've been pregnant only twice, to my knowledge, both in circumstances where the idea of abortion was not in the least bit necessary. Doesn't stop me have great feelings of sympathy towards women who weren't/aren't as fortunate as I was.)

Tulips, you think I don't know what it is?

You think I missed that when I had my abortion.

Yes, I thought my foetus was sucked out by kittens, to join the angels playing harps on a cloud.
Of course it took me waiting four weeks, travelling to the other end of the country, and me being treated badly for that to happen, but still, yeah, kittens and harps.

EldonAve no contraception is not free in Ireland, no medicine is, unless your income is so low you might qualify for a medical card. Going to the GP is not free either to get the prescription to get the pill.

wanttodo, Lettherebe has already made this point, but a pregnant woman is a pregnant woman - there aren't two lives, there is a real living breathing human being who deserves just as much respect and has as much right to self-determination as anyone else. And there is a potential life, an embroyo or a foetus who may make it to full term and may, sadly, not.

That embryo or foetus cannot have any rights that over-ride the woman's. Otherwise you are saying pregnant women are lesser human beings. Than a ball of cells? Than an embryo a few centimetres long?

God/Mother Nature is the biggest abortionist of all, btw. A majority of conceptions fail, often very early on before the woman is aware - or at least before women were aware in the days before p/g tests you can take before you've even missed a period.

Reallytired, get a grip... Ireland isn't 100% catholic and british rule wasn't 100% protestant. you sound a real charmer.

All the women I know who've travelled to the uk for abortion are in fact catholic, and i know a mixture, as contrary to popular belief, modern Ireland is far from 100% catholic.

Catholics are queueing up to register with www.countmeOUT.ie

Edam

I know that your view, ie that the 'what' is developing inside the 'pregnant woman' is 'just a ball of cells or somehow not human until it is born is the prevailing and fashionable view.

It is not correct to say there is only one life however, science and common sense would agree with that, surely?

The developing 'fetus/embryo' has completely seperate DNA, heartbeat from (I think) as early as four or five weeks. It is also potentially able to sustain life from as little as 21 weeks, albeit with a great deal of medical help.

I do understand that m,any pregant women do not feel happy, comfortable or that they want to continue with the pregnancy. From personal experience I had quite severe mental health issues from early on in my pregnancy (brought on by the hormones I can only assume) and felt very invaded, along with some extremely unpleasant psycho-somatic feelings going on.

I would never say that the 'fetus' should have more rights than the pregnant woman , but I persobnally believe they are valuable and do have some rights, at least to be allowed to be born even if the woman does not wish to be a mother and gladly hands over her parental rights.

And yes, many many pregnancies do end naturally before term, but this argument is surely a bit like saying well lots of people die naturally from all sorts of diseases, so hence murder is almost natural!!

Also, when a pregnancy ends naturally the fetus will inevirtably have dies naturally in utero, and not benn subjected to the preceedure whereby a live fetus will be killed using a variety of unpleasant and painful measures, so not the same.

MissGreatBritain can I remind you that there are 4.4million people in the Irish republic with a very wide variety of views and opinions and I don't know anyone my age (41) who has never used contraception and most people I know are pro-choice to some degree. The fact is that abortion is still illegal here because the older folk are still allowed to vote in referendums and generally turn up to vote in greater numbers than younger people.

Chickens, I did hear the master of one of the Dublin Maternity hospitals say that terminations are carried out in certain circumstances here when the mother's life is in danger and I have never, ever heard of any woman here dying of hyperemesis so I think maybe you might have been OK in that situation? It would be a good thing in general if these things were made clear so you knew where you stood.

I myself would not have a termination except under particular circumstances but I don't feel it is my right or the right of any government to tell any woman or let's face it, young girl, that she must continue with a pregnancy against her will.

I think, were it put to the vote tomorrow, it might very well get through as there is a huge groundswell of ant-church feeling here following the Murphy report.

I just don't understand the preciousness of a foetus to anyone other than the parents. I don't understand why it is sometimes valued as equal to a woman. It leads me to think that in some countries an adult woman is seen as the equal of a jelly baby sized lump of flesh. Ireland strikes me as a bit backwards in this respect, as does the US.

hear hear reservejudgement. In my circle of acquaintance, I don't know anybody who's admitting to using natural family 'planning'!! On rollercoaster the other day, a poster was saying a doctor made it clear that he disapproved of her wanting contraception (he gave it to her) and people were saying that's outrageous; just that he made his personal feelings clear.

No disrespect to the older generation, but in 15 years time, abortion will be legalised if we have a referendum.

There will always be a pro-life lobby I'm sure.

As for the hold the church used to have on Irish people, it is slipping away.. My friend's mother apologised to her for making her go to mass so regularly when she was younger. She apologised to her for making her feel dirty for having sex with her boyfriend (who was her first husband) and apologised to her for not even recognising her second husband!!!!

People are changing, even 60 something women are starting to think for themselves now.. They won't be told what to think anymore.

It's the woman's body and she should have the right to chose.

Having said that Ireland itself is also free to decide it's own laws ( within reason under the EU treaty, they have an opt out , for now about abortion, although the treaty states that the EU has a right to change laws as it sees fit and make member states apply those laws without the need for another treaty etc, so how long ireland can keep it's law for is anyones guess) and if the people want change they should push for a referendum and get their bums to the ballot box.

I also believe that if a woman/ child is raped she should immediately be given the choice of an abortion, law or no law.

And I strongly believe the RC church has caused enough suffering it should pull itself into this century and stop demeaning women.

'I would never say that the 'fetus' should have more rights than the pregnant woman , but I persobnally believe they are valuable and do have some rights, at least to be allowed to be born even if the woman does not wish to be a mother and gladly hands over her parental rights'

WantTo. You obviously do believe that the foetus should have more rights than the mother, certainly in some circumstances as you said that they have the right to be born even if the woman doesn't wish to continue with the pregnancy.
Therefore you believe that its rights trump those of the pregnant woman.,and that she should be forced to continue the pregnancy against her will.

That to my mind means she becomes the property of the foetus for the term of pregnancy, in spite of being the owner of her body and in spite of the fact that she's a fully developed human being which is more than can be said for the foetus.

I'd find it difficult to use any other term other than slavery to describe forcing any woman into that situation regardless of reason.

The foetus can't have equal rights to the mother, because it cannot survive independently. I am extremely glad that I was pregnant in the UK, and knew that if it came to it, my life would have been saved.

wanttodomyjob

The fashionable view, the fashionable view?

Really?

You really think that's why people support women who can't have a baby, because it's fashionable?

Oh great. The support I've had on here, will it change then next month. Will the fashion be to keep babies and cover them with jeggings?

There's nothing fashionable about giving women choice, it's about, well, giving women choice, and about giving them control over their bodies.

Letthereberock

I am saying that they both have equal right to life, that is all, and whilst very sad i would also agree with the womans right to terminate if her OWN life was in danger, but that is not why 99% of abortions are done.

I like to think that we are living in a society where all living beings are afforded a certain degree of respect, no matter how far 'developed' or even whether they are self aware or able to speak up for themselves.

My own opinion, quite aside from the science or morality aspect is that women are pretty much being conned and 'sold' abortion as a 'choice' by a government/society which does not particularly want to invest or support any more 'unplanned' pregnancies or find better or more humane ways of dealing with the pain and anguishe that so many women find themselves in.

Abortion may not be the 'easy'option for a woman but it most definately is for millions of women made to feel that is the 'best' choice she can make. If that is the 'best' choice a woman can make then as a species we are in trouble.

Is it a bad thing that old people are allowed the vote? If young people choose not to vote then that is their choice.

I am sure there are Irish people of all beliefs, however the majority of them voted against abortion.

I disagree with the death penalty, but many democratic countries like US and Japan have the death penalty. In the past the US has executed murderers who commited crimes as children. (If you count a 17 year old as a child)

www.constitution-and-rights.com/rights-4.html

How much should Brussels interfere with domestic affairs? Should the Irish be trusted to make their own laws?

And again two beings inhabiting or making use of the one body cannot have equal rights. It doesn't and cannot work. One must have more 'rights' or more of a say as to what happens than the other.

Muggle

I would never ever condemn anyone for having had an abortion, because as I said i think for many no other 'real'options are made available (if not practically but emotionally). But, I do hope and believe that a time will come when humanity will look back and grieve for the way it deals with all these 'unwanted'pregnancies.

Do you really think that millions of women are so stupid that they are unable to decide for themselves,without coercion, that a termination is the right choice for them?

Do you really believe that the Irish people are unable to govern themselves?

50% of the Irish electorate are female.

Or do democratic decisions only apply when you agree with the vote.

It seems a bit of joke that we have devolution in the UK (OK, I know its a seperate country) so that people can make local decisions, yet national powers are being taken away by Europe.

There are things like safety legistation which help common markets being decided at European level. Why does Europe need to interfere with personal life decisions of its countries.

I am not saying that anyone is stupid or being coerced!

What I am saying is that for a multitude of reasons, abortion has been accepted by certain sections of society,particularly those who have power and influence (historically men,although this is very slowly changing)as something that is a good thing for society as a whole.

I do not think that this has come about because the lawmakers etc are all pro women/feminists who truly believe that that a woen has 'the right to choose', but that it suits lots of other agendas.

What is a 'real' option, if abortion isn't?

Really, do tell me.

I know all about getting help if I had the baby. Yeah, my best friend told me that. Of course she'd have helped a year, two years, four years, twenty years down the line.

Doubtful, since she had a baby not long before to trap a man, and wasn't doing great with her own kids.
3 years on still isn't.

She hasn't forgiven me.
She thinks that girls should be told to test so that abortion is early like hers.
Early abortion is fine, particularly if you are getting rid of a baby with father unknown, to keep hold of a man with wife-known.

But yeah.
My abortion=terrible.

I am sorry Muggle but I will nevr be able to think that abortion at any stage, early or not, is 'fine'

Real choices would be equal responsibility between the mother and the father, where men are raised to understand and are expected to be a father financially andf emotionally if that is what the woman chose.

Another real choice would be to actively offer adoption as an option (particularly)for women who are ambivalent or who may be particularly damaged by having an abortion.

But basically it all boils down to society as whole valuing women first and foremost and believeing that a womens ability to produce new life is something to be valued and supported.

Chickens technically, an abortion can be carried out here only if the womans life is in imminent danger. You would actually have to be knocking on deaths door. It can be done in those circumstances, and has been, but it is a very rare occurance apparently. It has to be approved by the hospitals ethics committee.

You can't have an abortion if the foetus has a disability, even for a diagnosis of incompatability with life. Or if you are suicidal, or any other reason.

Should the Irish people be allowed to choose via referendum? I think not, because what that means is that in practice, those voting are doing so mainly from a theoretical viewpoint. Young poor women are not the biggest voter turn out. Why should the entire population get to decide what I do with my body?

Its not easy to travel to the UK for an abortion. You need to get the info, its expensive and time consuiming, and Irish women tend to have later more traumatic procedures because of this. What about those who can't afford it, or can't access the info needed to sort it out?

RT. I do think it's right for other parties to intervene in this situation because as I've said I believe it's a human rights issue and therefore not something that other people should be allowed to vote on as it results in people other than the woman herself having control over her body.

I don't care if half or the majority of people who are against abortion are female. They should still have no right to dictate what other women can and can't do to and with their bodies.

Ah what are you pro-lifers on? A bundle of cells more important than an adult human being?

abortion ok if you feel really really bad about it? then its okay? But if you reckon its a good choice then you are evil?

Bollocks to the lot of you.

Ireland is a shit country when it comes to women's rights. Catholicism is a shit religion.

Its only a few years since single mothers were demonised and ostracised....but hey. at least they supplied live babies for decent married folk to adopt.