Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

'And pooexplosion if you did you homewqork, you would find that many many women who have had abortions, and hence are, in your opinion, probably better placed to comment than I, have stated that the abortion/s they have had had had a deeply negative effect, and many regret on the deepest level the fact that they have gone down the path of abortion.'

And many, a number of whom have posted here and on MN, do not regret it at all.

Many people regret having all kinds of medical procedures, shall we deny them to all based on those who regret them?

'I'd be interested to know since it's totally untrue.'

Same here. In fact, I brought that up a while back, but of course, I'm an ignorant moron.

We little women need to have our lives dictated by our moral superiors, because we just don't know, do we?

So some people regretted it? Well then thats fine that people kill themselves when denied and forced to give birth to babies that will die in horriffic pain soon after?

Your arguments are quite frankly offensive. Take the choice away as women are too stupid not to have one and then regret it?

I truly believe, having been there, that what some women feel isn't so much regret about the baby, but regret that they had an abortion.

It's what I feel. I never wanted to have one, I don't think anyone does, and if I could go back and just not get pregnant, I would, but the emotional scars I have are all to do with the lack of support, the way I was treated and the terrible things that were said to me. (and still are going by this thread)

I regret being there, I regret having an abortion, but I don't feel that I did the wrong thing, in fact I know I did the right thing, I just wish there had been more support and that people could just understand how horrific it is to find yourself pregnant and know you have to have an abortion.

That's where the regret comes from, not because I wish I'd had the baby. The thought now still brings me out in a cold sweat.

Notanun, you are very welcome. It is somehow poignant to me that you find yourself in exactly the same place that I was in this time last year.

The waiting (albeit for different reasons...me because the clinic I could get to didn't have room before the holidays & closed for some time over them too) is hard & I feel for you. I ache for you, because I know. I did eat/sleep...I eat through trauma & my sleep was hard to come by & restless.

I remember driving in tears, trying to hide it from dc1 (5 at the time). If she asked me what was wrong I would tell her I felt ill...which wasn't such a lie, really!

You posted so beautifully before. Your words really struck a cord for me.

Take care of yourself, please. Although you are in a shocking place, you need sleep & food. You need to be strong! Take care of you!

-

I have read many many threads on here where someone finds herself pregnant in not ideal circumstances. The outcomes aren't important here, but what is is the massage that lots of other posters give the OP. And this is

"no one regrets having a baby, but many regret a termination"

And yes, that maybe true, but to find out you would have to question every woman who has had a termination & that isn't going to happen.

But in my case, my mum regretted having me. And I know, beyond any doubt that I would ave regretted having the baby I conceived last year. I truly believe that I would have cause irreparable damage to myself, my family & my children.

Mrs Rigby - many many posts ago (I didn't have time to come back to this yesterday evening) you responded to me by saying that if you were ever raped (and I hope you never do find yourself in that situation) you would take the MAP. Well, perhaps in an ideal world we would all take the MAP. But I do find it a callous response to an abuse victim who has become pregnant.

I too would not hesitate to take the MAP if I thought it necessary. But I am a confident, informed adult.

I am not a frightened 13-year-old girl who doesn't know who to turn to, who has been made to believe by her abuser that it is all her own fault and that she mustn't tell anyone because she will cause trouble. I think it's very unreasonable to expect that girl to use the MAP each time she is abused, and extremely unreasonable to expect her to carry her abuser's baby.

In an ideal world, of course, these things would not happen. There would be no abuse or rape and no contraception failure. But unfortunately we have to deal with the reality that we are in.

Notanun - I found your post most thought-provoking. Very well expressed. I wish you all the best in the difficult experience you are going through.

To be honest, i cannot really fathom why all of the -pro choicers are getting so worked up about, I have been wondering what their motives for posting so angrily in response to people like myself, who hold what is basically a minority view, so it seems.

I am posting because I bel;ieve that minority views should be given a chance to be heard and because I had a vain hope that someone somewhere may start to question the validity of all women 'needing' abortion on demand. Even if it waS just one woman it would be wel worth all the effort of posting.

We live in a 'civilised' society where all women already have access to abortion, right up until the birth of the baby, if they can 'prove' their case strongly enough.

So pro-choicers have already won, havent they. The one in three women who want/need abortions in their lifetime have already got what they deem is their 'right'. But that will always still leave the 2 in three women who have never, maybe would never have an abortion, thank god!

um, because this is a thread about Eire, where there is no right to abortion unless the woman's life is in imminent danger, wantto? Seems straightforward enough to me. (Btw, abortion also not available in N Ireland despite being part of the UK - appalling discrimination.)

wanttodo, I don't think many people are angry at you holding a view contrary to their own regarding termination rights. Not at all. I think any anger comes to the fore when sweeping generalisations are made about the intellect of certain groups of people, about procedures you clearly do not understand and about your lack of engagement with a discussion.

Can I say again and hope you hear it this time. On demand abortions? Where are these things? You don't just ask and get given. The law and the process around it don't work like that. It's not a straightforward and simple request that's fulfilled. Where is this happening please because it's nowhere I've every been?

And won? Goodness me is it a war or a competition? If war I'm assuming we would disagree over the victims and competition, well what the hell is the prize here?

And you must stop assuming things from a theoretical standpoint. 2/3 pregnancies don't end in abortion. This is merely fact. Stop attaching your own meaning to this. It's not thank god they wouldn't consider an abortion. How do you know 45% of the 2/3 didn't feel they had no choice? How many of the children were wanted/unwanted? Don't declare 'thank god' about it, it's conjecture.

And what is happening here is debate, surely the point of this forum. Otherwise it would just be a series of crap essays/speeches with no human interaction.

It is right and just that we respond to and challenge your points as you do with ours. It's healthy and informative.

But notanun, I have never, ever heard of a woman being denied an abortion, so although abortion isnt 'on demand' in the sense that you ask and you immediately get, it is a given right. Yes I know you have to make a case to two doctors etc but no doctor I know (GP's that is) and I do know a few, would ever refuse to refer someone on for an abortion because the law says that they (the woman) is legally entitled.

With regards 'winning', I do believe very strongly that 'for now at least, the 'war is over'. The jury has come back. there will be no changes in the law in the foreseeable future. pro-choicers need fear nothing. Of course it is not a 'war' in the truest sense, but the two 'factions' are both fighting for the legitimacy of beliefs they hold fundamental to them, the stakes are percieved as high, and one side at least does believe threy are quite literally fighting for lives. wars have been waged for far less!

To nearly every point I have made on this thread, people have come back and diregarded or minimised my pewersonal beliefs. I have not made any personal attacks. I have put forward facts (scientoific ones) and offered links to further info but still I am being accused of somehow giving untrue or false information.

Everything falls on deaf ears.

And please do clarify, how have I 'failed to engage with discussion'.

I have held firm to my beliefs as have you!

I am not reading my own meaning in from a theoretical standpoint- I did say 'maybe' the 2/3 women would never have one, mayube they would but statistically they dont, do they, and i am somewhat glad about this- hence the 'thank god'.

wanttodomyjob, can you answer one of my earlier questions then?

What do you want? Simply answered. Pro-life so abortion banned completely. Yes? No abortion for anybody? No exceptions? All pregnant women must carry their babies to term? Domestic violence? Abuse? Physical health? Mental health? All women must carry to term. And then if a woman seeks an illegal abortion. What will happen to her?

I'm genuinely interested in what you believe the alternative to be. I want to understand you in real, practical terms.

What i 'want' or more correctly what i feel wouold be more just, compassionate and IN MY OPINION moral, would be for abortions to be made available for women whose lives are in real jeopardy, either due to severe mental or physical health problems.

For all other 'cases' I do not believe that the end justifies the means. I do not think that the hundred and one reasons given to seek abortion are Good enough.

Taking a life, in our society, is and always has beena taboo, with the exception of this one thing. Why?

There are people on this eartgh who feel that due to the actions or omissions of others their lives have been ruined, or will be ruined. People do die due to the actions of others, every minute of every day, but that still hasn't led to a point in our society where it has become justified to take another persons life. even if you take a life in 'self defence' then you have to be judged in a court of law, by your 'peers.'

In other words, not, she believes all but very few women should be forced to continue their pregnancies to term.

Most likely including you.

"either due to severe mental.. problems"

And who decides this? Because I'd imagine the woman involved is the best judge of it, so should they be denied an abortion because somebody has decided they are not at risk "enough". Because then the argument goes into the territory of mental health care.

Kaloki
I am not sure who would 'judge' this. people with a great deal of knowledge and experience, loking at all of the relevant information, past history, risk asessments, thjeoretical knowledge base etc etc.

I do not think the women herself is always the best jusge of it, as we all know that we can make poor jusgement for outrselves,, especialy when it comes to health etc.

But because it would be difficult does not mean that, in my mind, it is not the right direction to be going in.

And expat, please do not make this personal. I haven't.

'And expat, please do not make this personal. I haven't.'

You make it personal every time you suggest that women are not the best judges of what should happen to their own bodies, IMO, wanttodo.

Because some of us find that incredibly sad and demeaning to all women.

"We live in a 'civilised' society where all women already have access to abortion, right up until the birth of the baby, if they can 'prove' their case strongly enough."

WE don't all live in such a society! In case you failed to read the OP, or the title, this thread is about Ireland and abortion, and some of us live there, with NO access to abortion at all. Which I'm sure makes you very happy, but many many women utterly miserable.

a lot of people regret getting a tattoo or get one under duress or whilst drunk or high.

let's ban tattooing.

"I am not sure who would 'judge' this. people with a great deal of knowledge and experience, loking at all of the relevant information, past history, risk asessments, thjeoretical knowledge base etc etc."

That's the problem though wantto, and I do understand your POV, that kind of help is difficult enough to get for people who've attempted suicide, let alone for those that want an abortion. It's off topic but relevant so bear with me, my friend attempted suicide 3 times (at least) before they agreed to give her any help, but still she is told that she isn't ill enough to get proper help. So I unfortunately don't believe that there is a good enough system to decide whether somebodies mental health would be "severe" enough to allow an abortion. I worry that a lot of people would be pushed towards more desperate measures.

Does that make sense? I'm not typing too well today.

Expat
just because 'we' are women you are a woman or anyone else is a bloody woman, doesnt mean we all have to agree with each other! I happen to think that abortion is demeaning, in every sense! I have not directed any of my posts at anyone in particular, I have given my views which I am entitled to do, as it happens.
You make it personal by suggesting i am directing things at individuals.
Like someone else very rightly said, this is a DEBATE. if debating this issue makes you feel sad and demened, and you would rather it didnt then you are not obliged to participate.

'if debating this issue makes you feel sad and demened, and you would rather it didnt then you are not obliged to participate.'

Again, nice try at trying to hound people off the thread.

Notanun also asked you a number of specific questions, but got no direct answers to these.

And with the 33% rise in babies born each year, we'll pick up the cost where? And not just the cost in population, housing, benefits, environmental terms etc but in mental health terms. With a woefully underresourced NHS and particularly mental health services contingent in this country, who is funding the extra care needed not just for the mothers who are forced to continue with pregnancies, but their families, their existing children, the child that wasn't wanted.

And you didn't address what would happen to those that broke the law. What legislation for a woman who couldn't continue with a pregnancy and sought illegal means of ending it? Is there an answer to this?

Would it not be better to tackle education, sexual practice, contraceptive resources etc so that the women that seek abortion are ones who truly need to. Because solutions like the one you suggest attack the symptoms, not the cause. Leave it to women to assess their needs and rights, as they should be able to in this situation and empower men and women to avoid this situation where possible in the first place.