Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

[TinselInYourBum]

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

notanun, I am so so sorry for the situation you find yourself in!

Your words resonate so much with me, please look after yourself! Your reasons are good enough, just so you know! I say that because it was what I mainly struggled with!

"but if the option was not available then I believe that their would in the main be a cultural shift and women would become much more feminist in the truest sense, being proud of and taking care of their reproductive capabilities."

If I was refused an abortion for any reason, and couldn't afford to have it done privately, I would have crashed my car in the hope that it would have caused a miscarriage.

I am proud of my reproductive capabilities. I have stated here that I have 2 much wanted dcs. But my body failed both of them at some point.

I am not ashamed of what I did. My existing children, my dh & ultimately my life was more important than what was growing in my body. I am sorry if you don't like that, but that is YOUR problem, not mine.

And I am sure that people who try & force or coerce someone to do what they don't to, or make them feel about decisions that have made are called bullies.....

'Your reasons are good enough,'

Too right! And you don't have to justify yourself to anyone, either.

YOUR body, YOUR FAMILY, YOUR RIGHT.

wanttodo, if a woman falls pregnant on the coil, they usually recommend termination anyway.

because removal will more then likely cause miscarriage,

because it is highly likely to be a ectopic

because failure to remove could cause it becoming inbedded into the foetus

I am ashamed to be a woman actually...right now! Because I don't believe that another woman could type the following to a woman who is seeking an abortion FOR VERY GOOD REASONS

"notanun when you have your baby killed/terminated/aborted it will not be a bundle of cells.

OR

"It will never know love and it kills me to think that he/she will be ripped away from the comfort and safety of your womb"

MrsRigby, I am sorry for your loss.

But please do not use it like that! To say that it made you say all those horrible & hurtful things to notanun.

"Having a miscarriage has just made me value life so much more and that's probably why I felt I had to post here and challenge peoples opinions"

Because my closest friend, who I called as soon as I found out I was pregnant has also had a miscarriage. She is also very Catholic. But she showed me nothing but support & compassion.

And the procedure is clinically called a TERMINATION OF PREGNANCY, not an abortion. I can abortion...but that is the the world that anti-abortionists use to make a TERMINATION sound so much more than what it is!

By expatinscotland Sun 13-Dec-09 17:58:09

Great post Expat (re men's responsibility). I am always dumbfounded by women who let men off the hook simply because it is women who are the physical bearers of children. Biology = destiny? I thought this was an idea of the distant past. Seemingly not.

Again, the debate has a tone that is profoundly depressing. I personally never felt throughout the original abortion referenda that details of what stage of development a foetus had attained was appropriate (or effective) as a method of pro-life persuasion in any of the referendum campaigns. And the ball of cells argument had the same problems. Both approaches served to polarise, and to patronise women. Lost in the din was much sense that anyone was committed to making women's lives easier or to making men take more responsibility for their conduct.

"Haven't read all of this but if abortions had been available in Ireland then I probably wouldn't be here. My Irish mother travelled to England to have me and then went back without me. I'm not saying that this is a particularly great scenario but i don't like the idea of loads of babies being aborted"

And if my mother had had the balls to stand up to my father, I wouldn't be here, either!

Neither would thousands upon thousands of others, had termination not been taboo on the 60s.

It isn't an argument, sorry! We ARE here.

Also going by that argument, in places where abortion is illegal there are going to be people who've died due to pregnancy complications, backstreet abortions or, in some cases, suicide. Which could have been prevented by abortion being legal.

There's no point getting into "what ifs"

Surely everyone is agreed that legal operations are safer than illegal ones?

If you don't agree with abortion, then don't get one. If you do believe it serves a purpose then it would be better to have access to proper care. Unless the operation affects you directly then I can't see how your opinion could override those that it does affect?

Sorry, had to abandon this last night and go to bed. DS still wakes us up for a bottle or two and we really need sleep.

wanttodomyjob is correct, there is a shortage of NHS staff. Not a lot of people want to be involved in the termination of a pregnancy. It's hard to watch, especially if your watching bits of arms and legs being pulled away and without any pain relief - for the baby that is. Or even worse, if the baby if terminated at such a late stage that the only way is to pull it out the mothers body keeping only the head inside and then inserting scissors into the neck and putting in a tube to suck out the brains. To see a babys hands and legs move and then suddenly stop must be very harrowing. To deal with formed lifeless bodys. Not nice.

From now on I will use the term termination as abortion and killing seem to upset.

I'm sorry if some people find the above harrowing, but it happens and I believe this is why there is such a shortage. Of course that said, many terminations are carried out like a D&C. Just depends on when the baby is terminated to the methods used.

chickenshavenotinsel I don't agree with abortion, I'm pro-life as everyone knows. That said if the mothers life is in extreme peril - death, then the choice has probably already been made for her.

Had this question have been asked 2 years ago before I got pregnant and had my lovely DS, I would have said I would let the baby kill me. I could not have killed it, sorry, terminated it. However, life is different now and I have a son to look after, therefore maybe yes - but I'd need help longterm because I don't think I'd ever be able to come to terms with what I'd done.

differentnameforthis you are right about the coil and miscarriage, ectopic pregnancy and birth defects. This was another factor for me not choosing the coil when looking for contraception.

Saying what I have wasn't because of the miscarriage, I was pro-life before. I just feel that much stronger because of what happened.

mrsR, you just cannot resist can you! You cherry pick the points you want, you overlook the fact that myself & another poster WERE using contraception & don't comment.

Then knowing fully well that nota will return to this, you continue to use the words the do & go into a descriptive of a late termination (for muggles effect, no doubt)

You owe many a sincere apology! But I doubt you see that & I doubt it will be forthcoming!

No, differentnameforthis I'm not overlooking you and the position you and others have found yourself in. The thread is now quite long and I don't have the time to answer everything. I'm 'cherry picking' the points I think need highlighting more than others or are more important.

What can I say if your telling me contraception failed you? Nothing.

As for notanun, I was awake for quite a bit of last night thinking about her. I do not wish her ill. It is for her sake and my sons that I will no longer be posting. She is going through hell right now and you're right, my words are without a doubt not helping her, but I can't help it - I'm pro-life.

I'm pro-life which means I highly value all life, not just a baby. This is why I am a committed vegetarian. I value notanuns life which is why she has no choice and I am not going to hurt her more than I already have.

My goal in posting was never to hurt anyone. Just offer a different perspective. I don't think there would be anything to be gained from me continuing to post.

notanun I'm so sorry your going through what you are. I hope the termination date comes quickly and you get lots of support. Just go and have it done, pretend like your just having a smear or something and then never think about it again. I've known too many women who have terminated for various reasons and needed long term counselling because they couldn't deal with what they'd done. It's not your fault, contraception failed and the baby will kill you. You have no choice.

I offer everyone on here a sincere apology for anything I have said that upset.

Mrs Rigby you have nothing to apologise for,
people dont like to hear about what an abortion realli is.

Yes there are just as many 'd&c' type abortions (still not great) but with the rules we currently have there are just as many being done where, i am sorry to say, the 'fetus' has to removed out of a very small opening and it doesnt take a rocket scientist to imagine how this is done.

Late abortions are even grimmer- and if the 'fetus' is not alive (as so many on here seem to indicate) then why is it necessary to deliberately inject it with lethal drugs??

The fundamental issue is that people wanta bortion but they dont want to hear about what it involves, saying it is a 'd&c' which is what many people I know who have had terminations have been told, is a load or rubbish.

From where I am standing, the 'pro-life' lobby are doing much more for women and their babies than the 'pro choice lobby ever have and ever will.

And I bet not one of the 'pro choice' people has even bothered to look at the info on abortion staff have they,again because they dont actually care enough.

Its an obvious and low trick to put yourself in the position of the caring and benevolent "pro-life" side and paint pro choice as callous and unfeeling.
Pro choice values a person who is already here and alive,unlike you. Pro choice values self determination, the right for a woman to control her own body, and to choose when to have children.
Pro choice wants every child to be a loved and wanted child. "Pro-life" just wants any baby to born, any time, irregardless of whether that child will be loved and supported.

You are not doing women any favours. Pro-life is hurting women, and ruining lives.

And I've read your links. I've seen that study before, having studied the philosophy of ethics. I imagine its difficult to be involved in terminations if you have a moral problem with it. But being a medical professional often involves doing things you don't like or have personal problems with, and nobody has to be involved anyway, there is an opt out clause that is practically universal.

and mrsrigby, your "apologies" are increasingly hollow and your terminology more and more offensive. I imagine it helps to continue your sense of moral superiority though.

MrsRigby, I thank you for your apology. Please don't feel the need to leave this discussion or any other on here for fear of upsetting people, perhaps just be mindful of your words as you type them (for example 'killing, sorry abortion' is not genuine contrition or recognition of the cruelty of your words, the backspace/delete button is what you're looking for, that's a cheap shot. Can we deal with facts and discussion not hyperbole?). I chose to join this discussion, if I am to be upset by words on a screen then it is time for me to shut down the computer and walk away. Perhaps I am here to punish myself or shock myself with engagement with people who consider me the monster/murderer that I have questioned whether I see within myself. That is my prerogative.

What I would like to ask you to do, you and anybody else that is pro-life is to seriously think about a couple of points. I am not swaying you from your standpoint, it is yours and you are entitled to it, but I'd like you to have thought through a couple of things before you engage with somebody in my situation again...

• What does it mean to be pro-life? To value living creatures, to think that every soul, every beating heart and thinking mind, every body that feels pain and joy and comfort and safety deserves consideration and respect. Yes? Do you perhaps think that pro-choice can also mean pro-life? You say, as do many pro-lifers that you care for that baby inside another woman, that it hurts you to think of it never knowing safe arms. Do you think that the mother isn't capable of those feelings too? That it isn't sometimes worse for the woman who has to do that? Because not every life can continue and decisions have to be made by doctors next to hospital beds, by mothers in a situation that tears them apart. A mother that seriously risks her own mental health to continue an unwanted pregnancy, and in turn risks the entire life, stability, well being and attachment of a child is in a pro-life camp to be ignored. Her well being, perhaps even her life and that of her existing children is affected immeasurably by forcing her down a path that is abhorrent to her. You perhaps sacrifice one life for another. It's not as straightforward as the act of termination where one person makes a decision and one life ends before it begins. Is it better though? Not allowing a woman the right to control her own mind and body and starting a chain of events that ripples through lives and generations? Is that somehow better? Do you not cherish that woman's life? The lives of the children dependent upon her?

• Is it possible that there is a part of you that sees you cannot understand the psychology of the decision to terminate having never been in that position yourself? Please leave aside prejudices about people who fall pregnant through lack of care and use abortion as contraception and think about somebody who has taken all necessary precautions and luck has brought her to this place. You say if your life was in question because of a pregnancy you could continue. Is it perhaps possible that the only person who can say how they feel in that situation, is the one experiencing it? The woman that already has a family, children, a husband, parents who depend on her. Would she so easily sacrifice her own life for an as yet undeveloped life, leaving motherless children, widowed partners and bereft parents. Can you really say? It is easy to say 'oh I'd continue with a pregnancy if it happened'. Well then that's an unplanned pregnancy. It is not unwanted. There is a chasm between falling pregnant without planning it and accommodating and welcoming that baby and falling pregnant with a baby you do not have the physical and mental capablilities to carry and care for. There would be a part of you that wanted that child. Can you know what it is like to not want that child at all? Did you know what it was to be a mother before you had your child? Can a woman who has never had a child tell you in any certain terms what parenting is, how it affects you, what complex psychological and emotional processes you have to go through to become a parent, is that something you can appreciate from a theoretical point of view?

• Might your station in life have anything to do with luck? Your contraceptive choices were not clever, the absence of accidental pregnancy in your life is not education, it is luck. You have met two women on this thread who have both had only ONE sexual partner each. One for 20yrs, one for 11. Both of those women used contraception, both used more than one type of contraception. Both are educated, witty, wonderful women (). Is it time to separate your beliefs about the shocking number of women who fall pregnant through carelessness and those women like the ones you are talking to now. It's entirely possible that women in my position who have had to make this haunting decision are also shocked and saddened that people can be so careless with their reproductive capabilities, men and women alike and can take the decision that is gnawing at my gut as easily as choosing a breakfast cereal. Can you accept that the problem of reckless sex and ensuing pregnancy/abortion, does not inform the debate about women like me who find themselves in a situation they fought hard to prevent. That I am not them and their actions should not affect my rights?

• What do you want? You accept that if a woman's life is in danger then termination is necessary. So you don't want abortion banned? Is it only in life threatening situations? What about the physical health of a mother? The mental health of the mother? What about abuse? Rape? Domestic violence? Who chooses who has the right to a termination? Is the woman's word good enough when confirming her life to be at risk? Or do you just want to change the time limits? And after all these changes, those women who still seek abortion illegally, through backstreet clinics and online abortion pills. What of them? What is the punishment for that? How do you appropriately chastise a woman who found herself in a position where she couldn't continue a pregnancy and had to make the hardest decision of her life? Prison? Fines? Corporal punishment? In a society of rehabilitation and justice (), what do you propose?

This is a debate that suffers at any attempts at polarisation. A woman who chooses termination (or more accurately is left no choice but) can feel and hurt, can believe that a foetus is a life, can question abortion in other circumstances, can cherish life as ardently as a woman who could not continue with a termination. She just had the misfortune to walk a different path, for luck to fall heavily against her.

differentnameforthis, it is something of a comfort to hear from you and to know that others have been where I am now, survived it and come out the other side happily. I hope the same can happen for me. Thank you for your kind words. Others too, for understanding my reasons and seeing them as 'good enough'. How hard it has to been to believe it myself.

Yes but PE the people taking part in the study didnt have amoral objection to abortion, thats the point, and they still found them selves deeply and negatively affected by being participants.

I dont believe that pro life is hurting women, and if it is it is because it is connecting with the part of us thsat makes us all human, our conscience. That is what seperates us in many ways from other species,
you have consitently belittled and been willfully cruel on here, whereas I can have respect for women and their babies.

wanttodo, you seem to confuse 'pro choice' with 'pro abortion'. The Choice bit is fairly operative. They want a woman to be able to choose and to support them either way. You only want to support women who choose what you want them to do. I think a pro-choicer would fight as hard for a woman's right not to terminate as for her right to terminate if that was her informed decision.

And please can you stop with the 'pro choicers don't want to know what termination is'. Do you imagine us all to be utterly naive? Do you think in the last week, from an already quite solid knowledge of the issue, I haven't read anything and everything from philosophical tracts to surgical records as I come to terms with my decision?

Do you imagine the pro choice lobby to be going round hard selling terminations to the antenatal wards? Do they not cherish pregnancy and newborns and the beauty of a welcome child?

Pro choice doesn't mean that you believe a termination is a lovely lie down while the nice doctor chats about skiing in France. It's about the rights of women, their bodies, their well being, the mental health. It's not about an attitude to a procedure or a disregard for reproductive capabilities. It's a recognition of the myriad life situations and choices of innumerable women.

That was wonderfully well-put notanun, thank you.

I hope you get a lot of support through this extremely difficult time. I'll be thinking of you.

"Not a lot of people want to be involved in the termination of a pregnancy. It's hard to watch, especially if your watching bits of arms and legs being pulled away and without any pain relief - for the baby that is. Or even worse, if the baby if terminated at such a late stage that the only way is to pull it out the mothers body keeping only the head inside and then inserting scissors into the neck and putting in a tube to suck out the brains. To see a babys hands and legs move and then suddenly stop must be very harrowing. To deal with formed lifeless bodys. Not nice."

Do Marie Stopes do that?
If not then who in this Country does. I know BPAS don't and I know because I had my abortion there and that is not what happened.
Oh, and btw BPAS have the only clinic in this Country who perform late abortion on the NHS, so the NHS doesn't do it either.

No pain relief was needed as the baby was dead, and it is done as a D&C. I'm not stupid enough to think they always manage to extract the baby whole but you know what? I don't care.
I cared more about me and my daughter, and if that's what it took to allow us to live happily then fine by me.

That's late abortion too, 23+1, you don't get much later unless there are abnormalities so you are entirely making up the brain sucking thing unless you are talking about another country, which is irrelevant to here, in Britain.

It doesn't matter if you believe that pro-life is hurting women, it is. I have met women who have been deeply hurt because of the ban on abortion in Ireland. Women forced to travel to the UK, women who have been unable to do so and so forced to have babies they don't want. I know women who have diagnoses of incompatability with life who have to continue a pregnancy with no hope of a living baby at the end. I know of at least one woman who killed herself because she could not afford to travel for a termination and could not have a baby.
Pro-life= anti women.

You call me wilfully cruel yet applaud mrsrigbys hectoring offensive posts? That just shows how far from a reasonable position you have found yourself....

Notanun- you have spoken very eloquently and movingly- I would not wish to stand in your shoes and wish you peace and happiness in yours and your families future.

Abortion is such a complex issue, and it is difficult not to become passionate about it. probably from a personal point of view, I always seem to coem out on the side of the 'underdog' whatever the dilemma and i suppose in the case of abortion, to me the unborn one seems very much the 'underdog'.

I dont and never have thought that women who have abortions are 'monsters', I feel sad and angry that women have to come to this terrible place.

But personally, and yes, it is just an opinion, a personally held, deeply help opinion, that in 99.999 % of cases the decision to take a life is not the woman/mothers. yes many pregnancies are lost through miscarriage, yes many women are in awful situations, yes to all the arguments given by pro-choice people, but I just cannot feel that all of the arguments 'for' justify the means, I just cant and never will.

And pooexplosion if you did you homewqork, you would find that many many women who have had abortions, and hence are, in your opinion, probably better placed to comment than I, have stated that the abortion/s they have had had had a deeply negative effect, and many regret on the deepest level the fact that they have gone down the path of abortion.

"which is why abortion clinics dont tell people how and what is to be done (which is odd as for evey other medical proceedure they make damn sure you know what is involved)"

Another load of rubbish.

They do tell you if you want to know.
Where did you get that from?
I'd be interested to know since it's totally untrue.

Applauds notanun!

"Yes but PE the people taking part in the study didnt have amoral objection to abortion, thats the point, and they still found them selves deeply and negatively affected by being participants."

Unfortunately people working in the medical profession will see deeply upsetting things, it's a profession that sees a lot of suffering. Which is what makes what they do so valuable.