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Three Irish women who travelled to the UK to have abortions have now gone to Strasbourg to argue that Ireland's strict abortion law violated their rights.

414 replies

TinselInYourBum · 10/12/2009 21:51

[http://www.bbc.co.uk/worldservice/news/2009/12/091209_ireland_abortion_et_sl.shtml]

God and I still can't do links.

I strongly feel that abortion should be kept illegal in Ireland.

MN Jury?

OP posts:
wanttodomyjob · 14/12/2009 15:33

KalokiI agree with you. There are so many failings in this society.

I work in a job which brings me into contact with many people who have been let down, time and again.It is hard to see it day in day out.

If society ever comes close to a point where it feels ready to explore other options to the current system (re abortion), i would like to hope that wewould like to have a MUCH better system in place to help people with all problems, be they mental, physical or emotional.

I know we are not there now.

Someone else, perhaps more eloquent than myself has already said here that if we do move closer to a different system, wherby woemn are not able to access abortions as they are today (in the UK) then there will have to be a radical sociological shift, a cultural upheaval if you like.
I feel that is correct.

Am I making sense- prhaps i am not explaining my POV well enough!

But please, i am saying it again, I am not 'anti' women'!!!

I want things to be better for everyone.

notanun · 14/12/2009 15:33

expat, I've about given up on specific answers.

wanttodomyjob · 14/12/2009 15:34

yes NOTANUN
all of those things would be critical in finding a better way, of course.

LeninGrotto · 14/12/2009 15:36

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Kaloki · 14/12/2009 15:38

wantto > Funny isn't it, despite me placing myself squarely in the pro-choice camp, I feel like I could have written your last post.

There needs to be better support in place, that support could cut down the number of regretted abortions, and therefore the total number of abortions, without denying them to those who need them.

wanttodomyjob · 14/12/2009 15:40

But lenin,

the law already 'decides' a hell of a lot for me.

Like, I cannot sell my own organs, even if I am in full possesion of my faculties and have capacity to choose.

I cannot be paid to be a surrogate mother.

I cannot seek voluntary euthanasia, at least in the Uk.

I could go on.

What is so different here then?

LeninGrotto · 14/12/2009 15:43

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

wanttodomyjob · 14/12/2009 15:45

Notanun

I must go now or my poor family will remain unfed tonight!

I want to wish you and your family well, from the bottom of my heart.

My views will always be my views (and you yours) but i would never wish anybody ill.

Thank you for debating this topic so eloquently, it cannot have been easy.

notanun · 14/12/2009 15:48

Firstly there's a difference because a foetus is viewed differently to a living person in the eyes of the law.

Secondly, in the case of selling organs and surrogacy, you cannot reduce the human body and its parts to the level of currency.

RantApplause · 14/12/2009 16:00

Have only just seen this thread so havn't read all the posts, just adding my opinion.

I live in Ireland and believe it is the individual womans right to an abortion should she decide it to be in her best interest. Interestingly, you cannot get a death cert for a child born under 24 weeks gestation as it is not deemed a person yet woman who want or have had abortions in the uk when they are only weeks along are called murderers in street protests and behind closed doors.

I believe everyone is entitled to an opinion and the right to voice it. I respect anyone who can stand by their beliefs in the face of staunch opposition and so I have no desire to debate this subject preferring to accept that we will never ALL agree on such a sensitive matter but I do find the hypocracy of my home country regarding this subject and others a little sickening at times.

Differing opinions I can respect and accept, hypocracy - no.

mathanxiety · 14/12/2009 18:34

"wantto > Funny isn't it, despite me placing myself squarely in the pro-choice camp, I feel like I could have written your last post.

There needs to be better support in place, that support could cut down the number of regretted abortions, and therefore the total number of abortions, without denying them to those who need them."

First ray of hope on this thread, imo, Kaloki I think the debate would be more productive if each side could acknowledge that the other cares deeply in its own way about women and babies, and if both sides joined forces to greatly improve circumstances of life for women and families who knows how much abortion rates could be reduced? There are real issues behind abortion that seem to go unchallenged and unchanged why is mental health funding so woeful and why are services so hard to come by for women who are overwhelmed? Why is there such a long wait for NHS vasectomies? Little details reveal much about the priorities of the health system, but the NHS is an entity that can be affected by prevailing political winds, surely?

In the case of Ireland the cruel maths involved means that as long as older people can and do vote, the pensions and other benefits they enjoy will probably not be reduced, whereas in a family of five, with three children whose allowance is reduced by 10%, there are usually only two voters. Five people have been affected by this reduction, three of whom are voiceless. Ladies, we can vote for better conditions. We can make noise about this.

It will take time, but it is up to us to make women and young families a priority of politicians, and make them stop the lip-service about the importance of the family, women, blah, blah, blah. Pay us 100% of what men make. Give us (and our partners) quality child care. Give us what we need and deserve through the health services (after all, men benefit from having happy, healthy women in their lives too). Protect us from violence by imposing harsh sentences for rape and domestic violence.

expatinscotland · 14/12/2009 18:52

i have a question for those in Ireland: 1) do you have a national health service 2) does it provide sterilisation?

RantApplause · 14/12/2009 18:56
  1. yes
  2. yes but only once you meet certain criteria which I'm sure about
pooexplosionsonthedustyroad · 14/12/2009 19:01

No and no.

We have a public health system, but to get anything for free is often difficult and takes a long time waiting. Lots of people have private health insurance, lots don't.
Sterilisation is only available as private procedure, unless there is a strong medical reason over and above contraception.
Privately, a vasectomy costs aroun ?600-700, female more like ?3000.

We also don't get child tax credits, or free gp's or dentists or prescriptions for kids. We get no free pre-school and have to pay contributions for schools and buy all textbooks and equipment.

Ireland is an expensive place to have children. But we've got to keep those little soldiers coming, right?

Kaloki · 14/12/2009 19:02

mathanxiety > it does seem silly doesn't it.

Pro-choicers don't want more abortions
Pro-lifers (I would hope) don't want women to suffer.

Maybe we are viewing things from different angles, but we both are looking at the same thing. Why not work together to improve care?

The only time I have a problem with pro-lifers is when they think attacking (physically or otherwise) people involved in abortions, but then I think those people have forfeited their "moral superiority".

expatinscotland · 14/12/2009 19:02

Sounds like the US to me . . .

Although you do get tax deductions for dependents there, and, excepting some cities like New York and San Fran, cost of living is cheaper.

mathanxiety · 14/12/2009 19:15

There is so much common ground, really, when it's all boiled down. And I don't think anyone is helped, nor is anyone's argument rendered more persuasive, by claims of moral superiority. (Talking about pro-choice and pro-life positions equally here) That is an aspect of the debate that gets nothing accomplished except to raise the temperature.

reservejudgement · 14/12/2009 19:19

Re you sure about the sterilisation, pooexplosions? Thought SIL got it done on the public system.

RantApplause · 14/12/2009 19:19

Sorry, meant to say 'I'm not sure about. However my friend who is over 30 with more than 3 children had the procedure free through the HSE so this is definately one thing that meets criteria.

Agree mostly with what pooexplosion said but should add that we do have a medical card system, free prescriptions, free pre-school and after school care and tax credits for children if we're 1)single/unemployed, 2)single/financially struggling even with a job or other simular circumstances. It's all means tested. Not in deep, deep shit? Just ankle deep?...call us when your suicidal (but only 9-5pm because after that we don't think you should be having any kind of breakdown - it's just unreasonable!!) or homicidal. Sadly some mothers decided to take tragic action when door after door was shut in her face.

pooexplosionsonthedustyroad · 14/12/2009 19:26

You can get it done on the public, but only if your doctor says that another pregnancy could kill you, or similar. And the waiting list is very very long. Vasectomy is not available, as its a "lifestyle choice" apparantly...

Kaloki · 14/12/2009 19:36

"There is so much common ground, really, when it's all boiled down. And I don't think anyone is helped, nor is anyone's argument rendered more persuasive, by claims of moral superiority. (Talking about pro-choice and pro-life positions equally here) That is an aspect of the debate that gets nothing accomplished except to raise the temperature."

Maybe us two should just don tie dye and flowers? Peace man!

expatinscotland · 14/12/2009 20:16

Vasectomy is not available, as its a "lifestyle choice" apparantly...'

is it just me, or does that smack of, 'Birth control is the woman's problem, and if it fails, that's her problem, too'?

Kaloki · 14/12/2009 21:11

It really does expat. That's awful

TheShriekingHarpy · 15/12/2009 05:46

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Message withdrawn

MaggieAnFiaRua · 15/12/2009 08:50

the pro-choice individuals don't get to 'dictate'. The law is that abortion is illegal. So it's the pro-lifers who do the dictating.

Of course euthanasia is different from aboriton! An old person was born, lived, probably has grandchildren.. can you seriously not make the distinction between a person who was BORN and LIVED and a cluster of cells?!?!?!? How odd to be unable to understand this difference. How obtuse to use it as an argument against choice.