Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

France and other euro states have a much bigger problem with Islamism. The laws on dress there have been brought in just as they are grasping this.

A secular school is just that though. Just as a church or a mosque is a religious institution. I have to don a veil to go into some places out of respect. Respect is a two-way sreet though.

I don't think people should have to change their identity to get an education though.

Education is all about going beyond the identity imposed upon you by your family, though - quite a good idea to leave some parts of it behind when you go to school so that you can make room for new ideas!

Identity? Do I change my identity when I put on a veil to enter a mosque? No, I don't. Like I said, this is a two-way street

Headscarf is fine, covering whole face is not. And totally not in a job where you have contact with the public such as receptionist, doctor, teacher etc.

As for education, I think schools should be secular (but with general religious education so kids are informed and learn a critical understanding). Religious symbols have no place in a school.

wastingmyeducation

When my female cousins worked in UAE, they had to ensure every part of their anatomy except for face was covered when they went out of the European compound (unlike the men btw). I don't recall their identities being changed, damaged or obfuscated.

Also, in the scenario you mentioned a child cannot be "converted out of Malay". If the birth parents are Malay then of course the child is of Malay ethnicity. Could I convert into English or Bengali or something if I wanted to? I think not.

Sorry that was a typo.

I meant convert out of Islam.

If you are of Malay race you are deemed to be Muslim in Malaysia.

THis is like saying that all black people in this country are Muslims.

Also if you are a Muslim you cannot change. So the Chinese child brought up due to switching at birth by Muslim parents was not allowed to change.

Re-education camps are horrific, people should have free will to make up their mind, not sent to camps and have their children taken off them.

ipsnews.net/news.asp?idnews=33940

"Apostates live in secrecy and are always fearful that they would be discovered and punished as what happened to 27-year-old Aishah (name changed). "I was caned, and forced to recant and released to a rehabilitation centre last year," Aishah told IPS. ?'I am a Christian and remain so at heart although I pretend to be a Muslim sometimes.'' "

"Increasingly, Islamic law is being used to punish Muslims for "crimes" such as consuming alcohol, gambling or holding hands. Unmarried couples found in cars or hotel rooms can be charged for ?khalwat' or close proximity. Usually they are fined about RM 2,000 (547 US dollars) each. "

Plenty more such stories:

www.boston.com/news/world/asia/articles/2006/06/26/malaysias_converts_test_freedom_of_faith/

" Five days after she declared legally that she had converted from Islam to Christianity, several officers from Malaysia's state Islamic department turned up at the woman's office and arrested her.

She said they took her, then 21, to a drug rehabilitation center for men, where a Muslim teacher counseled her on her conversion and on one occasion, caned her back. After two months, she found an unlocked door out of the compound and escaped."

Some parties (PAS) want a more extreme approach - death for apostates.

MT, I completely agree, I adore the UK, it's my home, I wouldnt want to live anywhere else, I'm given so many freedoms here and treated the same as 'the natives'. Which is a huge deal, I share the same rights and freedoms as those who's forefathers are buried here (my grandparents settled in the UK).

That's the main difference between the UK and anywhere in the middle east, where I would never ever be welcome, or given the same rights and freedoms as it's subjects, because I am not a native arab, I would never be allowed to own a property, become a citizen, educate my female children past primary school etc

I'd work in the middle east, as the money is great and you dont pay tax, but the UK is my home, always will be.

ex used to bang on about how xyz the UK was, I ended up telling him once to just go back to where he came from then.

What frightens me about these threads though, is the insistence that women who choose the veil are somehow considered lesser than non muslim women, because they choose to wear a veil they are considered to be somehow unable to make a choice but only because they've made a choice you dont agree with.
I absolutely think that a woman should be allowed to wear what she wants, she should not be forced to cover up, equally she should nto be forced to undress either.

When I was sorting out my divorce, the solicitor stopped midway to tell me to remove my hijab, she said it made her mad to see women opressed in such a way, that she would ensure no male walked in whilst I was without my hijab (headscarf).
I was in a really bad way at the time, but I laughed at her when she told me this, I pointed out that as I was seeking a divorce the last thing I would be sitting there doing would be adhering to the ex's dictat. I choose to wear my headscarf, and I was seeking a divorce hardly an act of a submissive doormat.

I dunno, one cannot hold every single muslim repsonsible for the abhorrent policies of the middle east, I've taken part in campaigns and petitions against a lot of these countries for their various transgressions. But I'm not responsible for the policies of a foreign country anymore than my non-muslim neighbour is. I dont see why an english muslim woman should have lesser rights than her non-muslim counterpart either. I pay taxes, I'm an upstanding british citizen why should I not be given equal rights and freedoms as everyone else in this country?

Yes, I think the idea of forcing people what and what not to wear is a bit - well, it's a bit mullahish.

I think we can still stand firm to values of liberal democracy and at the same time address these issues.

Banning and forcing anyone to do anything just alienates them, creates resentements. We are talking about women who have had or will have a full education. Eventually, as part of exploring their own developing identity, they will ask these questions of themselves. It's the human condition - and why women aren't afforded an education in most parts of the Islamic world.

The more I think about it, the more obvious it becomes. The change will come via women, not via men.

I find it amazing that the discussion of the niqab has become a discussion/criticism of the whole of islam for some posters on this thread.
If what you are saying is that there should be a discussion because of some far-fetched idea of what freedom and democracy is, as the opposite of what islam appears to be to you, then fine, if I had the energy to enter such a discussion I would be happy to, but am shattered from caring for my three autistic sons, and am also pregnant, and I wear a khimar (head scarf) and jilbab, or abaya.
I wear them because I am commanded to by quran and hadith, I have free will and have chosen to follow islam as much as I can.
So what are freedoms?

What is specifically meant by liberal democracy?
Going to feed my kids now, but will be back later, if someone will please just answer my question without resorting to saying it is human nature, thanks!

Oh, and am not a supporter of tyrannical states such as Saudi, et al, but definately not supporter of Blair, or any government for that matter...

Am also a convert to islam, born and raised here, and intend to live here till my death, as a practicing muslim.

liberal democracy I didn't bother with Wiki as it gets unnecessarily nebulous

This is another intersting new political development www.henryjacksonsociety.org/stories.asp?id=73

not a supporter of any government? What about politics?

I'm going to go slitghly off this part of the topic at this stage and start off another bit of the debate

As well as there being a number of resons why women wear viels, there are also a number of reasons why people say they shouldn't

Initially on here there were the people who said they didn't like it/found it intimidating/didn't want ot communicate with women in a veil. some of these have suggested that a headscarf is ok, because they feel thT they ar happy to see this (ie a totally egocentric approach to this)

There are others who say that because the viel is an outward sign of repression that women should be wearing it- ie that they shouldn't have to (an approach more in tune with understnading and worrying about the women involved)

I think there is a big big difference in both concerns and i would hope those women wearing veils/headscarves can understand the differnece.

And so can those with the former opinion can see how spurious their reasons are too.

and I'm interestede in the education thing- surely education is about empowering people and giving confidence and should be open to all... maybe education is a way to empancipation of the woemn involved

Yes, I think education is the first step on the emancipation ladder!

and fuzzywuzzy- great post. I was trying to say sme of that in my clumsy way.
We all need to walk a mile in somebody elses's shoesveil before we can decide what is going on in their lives i think

As women i think we should support other woemn with thier choices and help those that want ot change their situation without beign proscriptive about it.

People will change their lives when they feel the need, not due to some legilation and becuase somebody tells them too.

In other situations, opresssion and force must always be oppsoed

I dunno about always be opposed. I'm not a pacifist. Some people are dead on fighting and lying down in the road with a white hanky won't stop them.

sorry, in my longer post it should say "women shoudn't wear it", not should.

Why is it spurious to say you don't like something? If you really don't then how can that be said to be false? Many people find communicating with someone who is hiding their face difficult, and some may find it personally intimidating. As it is very unusual to cover your face in the UK it almost certainly will make a number of people very uncomfortable. I don't think that anyone should be advocating that the veil (or indeed any dress unless very obscene or offensive) should be banned in public, but I don't think it unreasonable for people to say they don't personally like it. Faces are a really important part of communication, and if you are used to interpreting them suddenly losing that capacity will have an ipact.

yes nooka, we agree that the "i don't like it" approach is not a reason to ban the covering of faces in this country.
As the reason behind a peice of legislation i would call it spurious tbh.
But maybe there we will agree to differ.

My 5yr old son doesn't like to play with a 1yr old we know becuase she has a lump on her lip. he doesn't like to see it, it makes him feel uncomfortable and frightened.....

I just don't think the "i don't lke it" approach to banning it is something that has legs IYSWIM.
There are plenty of people who don't mind it and will happily make eye contact and talk to women who have a covered face,including other woemn with niqabs on.I just don't believe we can justify passing laws becuase of fear and dislike by a certain section of society.

Maybe we should have a hug a niqabi week

after all the things we fear are often nowhere near as abd as we thought.

I'm more scared of other things tbh than a woman with her face covered.
What is it that you think people are afraid of?
I can understnad that sommunication can be difficult if you can't see somebody's face- like on a phone... but we haven't banned phones have we?

(not sure if that is a sensible analagy, but I can't see how people can't move forwards with the fear and the irriationa at feeling maybe they can't communicate and realise that these are not reasons to ban something)

Well it depends. The laws in France come from a very complex situation. The death of Theo Van Gogh in Amsterdam was a watershed moment for many states in europe with a high - and growing - Islamic demographic.

And it hides the fact that many women in Islamic communites in Europe are still not allowed an education by right of their culture. Agaion, the women who can 'chose' are not the ones that need help. But how to you reach girls and women closetted in their homes, living third world lives in a 1st world society. Maybe they are hoping it will have a trickle down effect. That the message will get to them somehow.

The French are trying to claw back some autonomy and reasserting a liberalist culture. I'm not saying it's good, but they seem to feel it is necessary.

the murder of Theo Van Gogh, I should say.