Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

I haven't read the link Spokette, but that is interesting that someone can call themselves a lesbian and a Muslim. Being a Muslim is not an ethnicity, where you are born into it and stuck with it till death. It is when you conciously choose (or remain in) Islam as your religion. Homosexuality is regarded as a very grave sin in Islam, there are no different interpretations or differences of opinion about it. Does that mean that this person believes that there is one God, that Muhammed (PBUH) is his messenger, prays five times a day etc. but struggles with her lesbianism? Or does she act upon her lesbianism, doesn't do anything remotely Islamic but chooses to call herself a Muslim for whatever motives she might have? I know this is OT, but I am quite interested because I've seen articles where people have said things like "I am a Muslim who drinks alcohol, cohabits with a man I'm not married to" etc. Just seems odd to me .

I don't know if they are oppressed MP. They sound unhappy certainly. But there is a difference on low self esteem holding you back and the social systems holding you back regardless of your self esteem - low or high.

However unhappy, these women would not be imprisoned for having an affair to escape the misery of their curreht relationship, or lose custory of their kids - or worse.

I am not a cultural reletivist. I believe in universal himan rights. I do not see that it needs to follow that Islamic countries lose their 'culture and identity' by signing the declaration of human rights.

They are very good at insisting that visitors abide by local or traditional customs - in a way, that is what we in liberal democracy have failed to do. We have not defended our own culture enough. It's almost a kind if self hatred.

Thankfully we seem to be waking up to that now.

Then read the link, she's a fascinating woman who is trying to reconcile Islam, human rights and freedom.

I know being a Muslim is not technically an ethnicity, just as is being a Jew - but in practice it may as well be. You don't live either long or free as an apostate in Islamic societies.

Hirsi Ali calls herself a muslim - though she has a fatwa on her head for apostatism. If pushed I would have to call myself christian c of e as I was christened, though I am an athiest. She was mutilated and infibulated. I think that leaves a psychological mark as well as physical. And of course she is entitled to call herself what she wants.

But other than that, could she be a progressive Muslim?

Also I met some non-orthodox Muslims - refugee's in the aftermath of the Bosnian war. They were technically muslims, were persicuted for being so, but they did not prey, they drank, they led western lives

What is our culture? Fox hunting? Church on a Sunday? Chips with everything?

When we talk about our culture, what does that actually mean in concrete terms?

Funny how Islam is not an ethnicity when you want to criticise someone who identifies as Muslim, but it is an ethnicity when it comes to complaining about discrimination.

I am talking about liberal democracy. Free speech, human rights, etc.

It's hard to see your own culture when you live in the middle of it. It's all the things you take for granted at home, but would miss if you lived abroad. For some people, that might be Marmite and Radio 4 (with all the kind of collective values that implies), for others it might be Hallowe'en/Bonfire Night/Christmas/Easter and all the other festivals that mark the turning of the year in British culture.

(Obviously other countries celebrate some of the same festivals, but they do it differently, even on different dates.)

great cross-post there, think monkey is being a bit more intellectual about this than me!

Well, I would say that exercising the right to dress however you choose, however 'eccentric', is very British.

"However unhappy, these women would not be imprisoned for having an affair to escape the misery of their curreht relationship, or lose custory of their kids - or worse."

I thought it was the UK Muslims we were talking about specifically though. This wouldn't happen to them would it, only in some Muslim countries. So I really don't see much of a difference.

I have never heard an atheist describe themselves as a Christian MP, they are quite vocal that they are not. Of course anyone is entitled to call themselves what they want, it's just that Lesbian Muslim makes as little sense to me as God-fearing atheist or Jesus-hating Christian.

"Funny how Islam is not an ethnicity when you want to criticise someone who identifies as Muslim, but it is an ethnicity when it comes to complaining about discrimination. "

Where did I refer to Muslims as an ethnicity or complain about discrimination? Or are you talking in general? Are you thinking of something in particular here? I am confused.

"You don't live either long or free as an apostate in Islamic societies."

Huge generalisation there . I can assure you that I can walk away now and I will live as long and as freely as the next guy, either in this country or mine. Actually I know a few people back home who have rejected Islam and continue to live normally in the community without fear of death or injury . Just correcting you as your sentence implied that it was so in Muslim societies in general.

I know a woman who became apostate, she's still alive and turns up to social events as and when they occur.... people even you kow talk to her and everything!

This is in India, I've no idea what would happen if a Muslim became opostate in Essex....

megapixels - it's late and I'm too tired to be wielding the power of Google. Would you mind doing me a favour and listing the Muslim countries where you can turn away form islam without judicial retribution?

sigh. From. I said I was tired...

The apostacy laws in Malaysia, supposedly moderate, are horrific. People are not allowed to convert out of Islam.

They have re-education camps, a child who was switched at birth from Chinese to Malay family (who are legally (because of their skin colour basically) Muslim) was not allowed, on finding out, years later, to convert out of Malaysia.

Story about woman who was sent to re-education camp and had her daughter taken off her for apostasy here: www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgnncfYRPxk

BTW, India is not a Muslim country that's why it's not illegal. That said, doesn't mean it's not dangerous, it depends on the area.

Indonesia is explicitly not Islamic, but just because apostasy isn't a crime under the law, doesn't stop vigilantes killing apostates. And of course honour killing exists in the UK. www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/article510589.ece - not Essex, but not that far away.

There is some quite odd stuff here I think. How incredibly sad to dismiss the potential friendship of half the world. More than half of my friends are men, because they happen to be people I have things in common with. Most of the people I work with are men too. I have yet to notice any of them ogling me, and I wear fairly normal clothes (of which there are a huge variety even excluding both mini skirts and burkas). In fact the only time I have ever been in an uncomfortable space with men was when traveling in India (when I always wore long trousers and long sleeved tops, and often a scarf too).

Men, like women are perfectly decent people who do not spend most of their time thinking about having sex with any random females they come across. I am an aetheist, but it seems to me incredibly sad to think that a God should create us all to such poor standards as to have to cover our beautiful (and presumably God given) bodies for fear of sex. Surely there is something wrong in that equation?

I walked past a woman this morning who made me think of this thread. She was wearing an abaya and headscarf but the abaya was very close fitting and satin. Her headscarf was trimmed with gold, very flattering and she had loads of make up on. She looked beautiful but very sexy. Not in the least bit modest.

When I was in Birmingham two weeks ago, I notice how more young women are wearing the full niqab, so just showing there eyes. I was walking behind one young girl and she kept checking her appearance in the shop window.She was obviously making sure that the eye-liner was not running because they do wear a lot of eye make-up which I find bizarre since they are not suppose to make themselves attractive to the opposite sex.

Most of them are doing it not for religious reasons, it is political and way of expressing their own identity and to show that they are different. They will reach 30yo and realise what idiots they have been.

Why they want to chattel themselves like this is beyond me. The funny thing is, the boys are dressed in the latest fashions and they are checking out the non-niqab wearers.

Riven don't you think that in non mixing and making women 'forbidden fruit' it's going to make men more lustful towards women - not less?

In Saudi Arabia where the sexes do not mix, there is a huge unspoken problem with sexually fustrated men kidnapping women, raping them etc. It is all covered up though to maintain the facade of a sexually neutral and benign society.

You might be interested to also know that Saudi Arabia is one of the worlds largest downloaders of porn on the internet.