Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

Mega - I was responding to your post at Tue 02-Jun-09 17:45:36 when you said 'being Muslim is not an ethnicity'. Not having a go, just noticing the contrast between claims that someone who is a lesbian cannot possibly be a Muslim and the demands (from others) that Muslims be treated as a group protected from discrimination in line with (other) ethnic groups.

If Islam is a religion, it should be open to criticism like any other system of ideas, dealing with the cut and thrust of debate. Especially from Muslims! (Prepared to make reasonable arguments in its favour and listen to the arguments of others who disagree.) Rather than being off-limits because SOME people try to shut down down any critique with claims of 'Islamophobia'.

If it is reasonable for other culturtes to say 'please cover your face' is it not reasonable for us to say 'please uncover your face'?

I don't know actually. We are a liberal democracy - the liberal part is important, but so it not being so liberal as passive as to let ultra conservatism abuse that.

I don't know if it is okay to expect women to uncover their faces.

What I do think is essential is that we discuss it loudly, in the media and everywhere - discuss the historical (patriachal) reasons behind it and plant as many liberalist seeds as is possible without actually alienating people.

maybe the best way to do that is to start saying , 'you know, the west isn't half that bad! I wouldn't want to live anywhere else!'

Here in France, as you are undoubtedly all aware, Muslim girls are not allowed to wear headscarves at school.

There is a mother of a little girl in my DD's class who herself wears a headscarf. She recently was an accompanying mother on a class outing - with her headscarf. I still haven't got to the bottom of whether this is really legal or not!

I am very interested in all of this and am struggling with how it all works.

i think on an INDIVIDUAl basis one cannot assume why that woman is wearing a veil and cannot make any specific request for that individual woman to change her way of dressing at that particular time....

but

I totally toatlly agree that women should not be opressed and worry that the SIGN of that opression is to be encouraged/made to wear a veil. we need as a society to try to help/understand/prevent the wholescale opression of women n any religious/ethnic group.

And that is where it is bloody hard to have an opinion that doesn't take about half an hour to explain

I honestly think there are as many different reasons for wearing a veil as there are women wearing it when you are in a society such as the UK.

But to target an individual woman and ask her NOT to wear a veil smacks of opression just as much as telling she MUst ear a veil

IYSWIM

And thanks for the debate-

Monkeytrousers

"maybe the best way to do that is to start saying , 'you know, the west isn't half that bad! I wouldn't want to live anywhere else!'

Absolutely. That is why asylum seekers and many poor economic migrants tend to opt for Western countries rather Muslim countries like Saudia Arabia or Afghanistan.

The Muslims in the UK who take advantage of the liberal West would not be so vociferous in their anti-western stance if they had to live in countries like Saudi Arabia. Imagine this happening in a western country? It would be tantamount to manslaughter.

HelloBeastie - I don't know, I would have to google it too. MT was talking about Islamic societies not countries and I was responding to that.
Someguy, that is interesting about Malaysia. I never knew that they had horrific apostacy laws? I have lived in Brunei, and due to that visited Malaysia quite a bit and always thought they were a country that followed Islam properly. i.e. True to the teachings of Islam without trying to westernise it while not conveniently altering it to be women-unfriendly and barbaric like some countries have. Do you have any links I could read? I don't really see re-education camps as being horrific (I assume these are just lessons about Islam and not being whipped across the back while being forced to scream out God is Great!), although I don't agree that people should be made to be re-educated if they don't want to.

Also, in the scenario you mentioned a child cannot be "converted out of Malay". If the birth parents are Malay then of course the child is of Malay ethnicity. Could I convert into English or Bengali or something if I wanted to? I think not.

I find very fat people in skimpy clothing much more offensive, tbh.

Agree completely oopsagain.

BonsoirAnna - why should it be illegal? The school imposes a uniform on the students, not the parents.

megapixels - no, this is not a question of school uniform. French law has made the wearing of headscarves (or any other sign of religious affiliation) illegal in secular schools (all French state schools are secular, and some private ones are) for staff and pupils alike. I don't know what the law is for parents on school premises!

I am just using this as an illustration of the minefield this area is!

I find that very distasteful Anna, but then I disagree with school uniform altogether anyway.

I'm not sure I understand your point: there is generally speaking no school uniform in France (my DD's school is a rare exception, and mostly to do with security).

Really? That's even worse then. So you're allowed to wear whatever you like except something that might be central to your sense of identity.

Haven't read the article or all the thread, but I feel uncomfortable about any religion that asks women and girls to cover themselves.

I'd never dream of trying to ban any form of clothing, or of trying to 'enlighten' a religious person, but I can't help feeling sad when I see families so visibly split by gender, ie dad and sons larking about in comfortable and individual western style clothing, mum and daughters walking slowly, heads down, covered up.

I don't agree with most organised religions and I think the key to understanding each other is to keep the debate loud, lively and polite.

I've heard numerous Muslim women say that they aren't forced to cover up etc and I have no reason to disbelieve them, but what I don't know is why their culture or religion wants women and girls to cover up but not men and boys.

I think it's a bit of a red herring anyway to say 'they choose it'. Well they mostly would, wouldn't they, had they been born into a prescriptive religion which all of their family complied with and took for granted.

I'm not sure if a child asked me 'why does that lady have a face mask on' or whatever, that I'd be able to give a clear answer that didn't make my opinion on it obvious. I can't pretend I think it's 'just another way of life, equal to ours'. I don't, I think it is unequal.

wastingmyeducation - schools in France are fiercely secular - you leave your religious/cultural identity at the door.

Morris, it's been explained on the thread that men are required to cover, but to a lesser extent than women.

Anna, that's what I don't like, a middle ground between religious schooling and schooling that requires you to deny your identity would be better imo.
Liberty above all else I say.

There really is no perfect solution . Best to have a choice of schools (and religious schools do exist in France) and to let people pick the kind of school they want. One-size-fits-all just doesn't meet everyone's needs.

Are there many non-religious schools that would allow headscarves?

It isn't up to the school to decide: it is French law that in secular schools (which is all state schools) headscarves and other signs of religious affiliation (kippah etc) are not allowed.

There isn't a choice of middle ground then is there.

No, this isn't a "multicultural society". But there really isn't an ideal solution: I don't think that the flaunting of religion in a secular school is a good thing.

Wasting, as far as I can see men in Islam wear what I would call ordinary western clothing, and can wear shorts, t-shirts, swimming trunks etc, whereas the women can't.

So the standards of modesty asked of men are the same asked by our country too, ie cover your loin area. I agree with this level of modesty for both sexes, regardless of religion.

This is hardly comparable to asking women to cover their arms, legs, hair or face.

lol Bella - but the rigt to offend is part of our culture