Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

Sorry, Puss, x-post.

I hardly think a saturday night after the pubs shut is representative of the vast majority of people who have friendships with the opposite sex. Something of a vast leap there!

Actually, I am Christian and I do my utmost to live my life in a way that pleases God, so I do see where you're coming from.

I just believe that He (or She) has given us free will and it's up to us to interpret what living a good life entails. What I tend to shy away from is someone prescribing (and proscribing) my day to day behaviour in such detail - but that's the anti-authoritarian in me - I shall have to argue that one out with the Big Guy come the day of judgement!

Fair enough, spicemonster - being Catholic myself I felt mildly got at

Haven't read all of this but I think it is surely pretty obvious that in a so-called "free" country, people should be able to wear whatever the damn hell they like? Why on earth would we start telling each other what to wear and what not to wear?! Ridiculous and horrifying that anyone would seriously contemplate this.

I see a fair few veiled women at uni, and I can't say it bothers me; they none of them seem to do my subject, but if they did I wouldn't be at all troubled by the presence of a veil in my class- as long as all the ablative absolutes are present and correct!

fascinated by the non-opposite-sex-friendship, Riven

but that's probably because some of my best friends have been men, often fellow students or colleagues- it just wouldn't occur to me (or to them) to confuse that with my relationship with dh; never been propositioned by a male friend and don't suppose it will ever happen

You know, in a way, this puts Islamic women are the centre of an argument, rather than radicalised men. It will cause female dissent in homes. It will show women and girls who are being prescribed dress codes that there are other options.

The women who can make a choice about this are probably not the target audience.

yes, exactly. But like those 200 women who marched against the spusal rape laws in Afghanistan, it will plant a seed.

I wonder if the real Islamic reformation will come from women not men. Women who are exposed to options they have previoulsy not had the luxury of even considering...?

monkeytrousers, men have certain things prescribed on them too like women do. Islam is different to many other religions in that it is regarded as a way of life rather than only a belief system. Meaning that there are defined rules as to how you live, eat, dress, pray etc. People who have complete belief in one God and that Muhammed (PBUH) was his messenger will choose to do them. Others will not, and some, unfortunately, will be forced to do them. Everyone will have their own interpretation as well.

Some rules that men have to follow are:

1. Covered from navel to knee.
2. Beard
3. Not permitted to wear pure silk or pure gold (women can)
4. They are completely responsible for providing for their wives and children.

For example: a. I can work if I want to and that money is completely mine. My husband has no such freedom. He has to provide for us (wife+children). b. I can not work if that's what I want and my husband will have to support that for a lifetime. He does not have that freedom. He cannot for example say he wants a break and ask me to be the breadwinner for awhile. But with my permission that is possible. c. If my husband was very poor or in debt I could pay zakat (the 2.5% Muslims give to the poor during Ramadan) to him. It is regarded by God as an act of charity. The opposite is not possible as what is his is mine anyway. d. And if I want to I can provide equally to the family expenses and put everything into a common pot for all of us. My husband though, has to.

But you don't really hear many people say that Islam must have been cooked up by women to make men their slaves or that men should rebel for change. The reality is that there are defined rules and roles in Islam for both sexes, but veiled women are more visible, so attract more attention.

I meant to say the 2.5% tax Muslims give to the poor during Ramadan.

what is the significance of the beards?

I know that MegaPixels. Highly conservative and patriachal cultures don't do well by most men either, and I also know that mens dress is somewhat prescribed - but for very different reasons. It shows rather a submission to God, whereas, female prescriptions show a submission to their fathers and husbands, as well as God.

But in reletive terms, the mortal costs to women are greater. That is not to discount the struggles of men. Focusing on more rights for women will also affect mens rights too.

I don't know Nancy . My father or husband or, come to think of it, any of my close male relatives don't have them so never troubled myself to find out.

monkeytrousers, how does the veil show submission to the fathers and husbands?

Megapixels, it is somewwhat a pancultural/pan species phenomenon - the manifestation of what is called in biology 'mate-guarding'.

Basically it boils down to the fact that men (or males) can never be 100% sure of their paternity. This then can manifest into the oppression (or control) of women. This exists on a wide contiuum - from the reletivly benign; prescribing clothing which hides the 'property', women not being able to go out without chaperone, living under the beady eye of mother-in-laws - further down the scale we get less benign, which might be refusing women the privledge of education, birth control, - then we get to the positivly malign, FGM, infibulation, imprisonment or death for being a victim of rape - stoning, etc.

It's all very well documented now. The evidence that these are all ways that men attempt to ensure (as much as they can) paternity, and that some cultural systems facilitate this, is fact not hypothesis.

Afaik, the beards started in the times of the prophet (PBUH) to distinguish between the Muslims and the non Muslims at a time when the word of Islam was being spread...I could be wrong though, I'm just going by memory rather than a concrete source, but I will look it up later

Also, men with beards are considered not to be as attractive to women and thus its recommend to have a beard...I know some women could find a beard attractive but you get the gist of it!

Check out Irshad Manji's website. She is a Muslim, a lesbian and has had death threats against her for having the moral courage to speak out against Islamic nutters and those who prefer to exist with 7th centurary mentality.

This article about the niqab was sent to me a few years ago for anyone interested in reading it.

I personally find it insulting when I see a Muslim woman covered up walking behind a man dressed head to toe in his western clothing. I grew up in Birmingham and trust me, Muslim men are chasing girls all the time whilst the women stay at home to cook, clean and breed. I had three friends who ran managed to run away, thank goodness.

thanks for posting those - both very interesting.

That's interesting Spokette. In Islamic states there are more prescriptions on male behavior too - in liberal democracy, those same men can run 'free' as it were while they still enforce strict codes for women behind doors. Hipocrasy indeed, but very predictable.

I think the next great feminist movement will be about Muslim sisters standing up to fight, especially young ones living in the West, given an education by law, not by culture, they will most likely be those who are not yet married and defo without kids. But there will be an awful lot of them who I think will refuse to get back in the chattel house when they are ordered to

I hope you're right monkeytrousers - but it seems to me that many of the young ones in the west are even more extreme than the older generation.

That's just part oif being a teenager though - as a Muslim in the UK, you can take your pick of which side you want to rebel against - spoilt for choice.

But I do think most of these young women who only know the freedoms they have enjoyed in liberal democracy, whilst also being able to observe their mothers and grandmothers have a unique and incredibly important part to play in the future of liberal democracy and wider - universal human rights.

monkeytrousers you are quite right about that re controlling behaviour by men stemming from paranoia. I can see how covering up women and keeping them at home can come from that. However if it is an adult woman doing it of her own free will (because she thinks it will bring her closer to God or paradise) I have no issue with that, even if as an aside it means that men have all the control.

Some women seem to put up with anything. Some can't seem to break free and some don't seem to want to. It isn't confined to the Islamic world. I've heard white British women say things like their OHs spend all their free time at the pubs and with mates while they cook, keep house and bring up the children. And I know one who says that the OH not only does nothing around the house but doesn't even contribute to the household expenses, and expects sex. These women are oppressed too, forced into roles as glorified servants and sex slaves. It is no better or no worse than women who are forced to wear the veil.