Please uncover your face-Matthew Parrish

[mrsruffallo]

Interesting article here
I have noticed that there are more women covering up in the last few years.
Any opinions?

But personal fears are not a basis for cultural/country wide change. I - and many others- find spiders intimidating, scary, we cry when we see them, but we are not out campaiging for an all out ban on spiders.

Evenbetadad, perhaps it is, perhaps many of the women wearing it do not want to talk to western men. Is that not their right to decide?

I do not want to talk to an awful lot of people I meet. I get the point across by avoiding eye contact, giving short answers to questions and being "unavailable". It is often seen as rude but really I am just excercising my right not to pass the time of day with people I don't want to spend time with. Being western this is seen as a bit odd.

I don't want to ban them KingCanute but I find it sad that women who wear them must find it so hard to integrate into society/make friends etc. I don't know, maybe they don't want to be friends with anyone who isn't Muslim. That's how it feels to me.

I don't really think you can compare veils to spiders

Rather than seeing them as oppressed chattels, Muslim friends say that on the contrary the increase in the number of particularly younger Muslim women wearing the burka is that it's more an anti-Western, pro-Muslim statement. Was also surprised by the quite negative feeling between my more 'liberal' Muslim friends and those who are more fervent (forgotten the Arabic term they used) in their beliefs.

KingCanute - its not that I want to pass the time of day but sometimes it is necessary to communicate with people in order to live in a society.

Are you really saying veiled Muslim women visit or live in my society and deliberately set out to wear a form of dress that is desiged to make it clear to me that communication is unwelcome?

Wy do veiled Muslim women visit or live in my society? Why do Muslim men not wear clothing that sends the message that they do not want communcation?

Good points Beta.That is the way I see it.

No but you can compare the reaction to the veil with the reaction to spiders. "argh, oh, ekk, get it away from me"

It is about immediate distrust, immediate fear, immediate want for change.

I find the same things sad spice, but I lay the blame firmly with the people who refuse to get past the whole "oh poor suppressed woman" thing - not with the woman in the veil. Yes, she may not want to know you but that is her choice. Deciding you cannot know her simply because she wears some kind of headpiece is biggoted IMO.

I do find, with some little experience, that people who choose a religious or cultural statement are far more willing to discuss/explain their choices than people who choose not to understand their decision.

I have found the conversation goes something like "well i don't like it cause I think it is oppressive" "well I like it because it gives me the chance to fulfill my religious/cultural beliefs. I have chosen this over my peers and family and I stand by my right to do so. Why do you think it is oppressive?" "Because certain women were forced to wear it" " well I wasn't, I choose this because it is what I want" "well you are wrong cause other women don't want it and you must be betraying them" "I defend their right not to wear it - just as I defend my right to wear it" "erm.... but... well it is just wrong"

Because it is not your society Beta, it is ours

I don't think it makes me bigoted not to want to talk to someone whose face I can't see. That's how we communicate. It has nothing to do with religion - I'd feel the same if someone would only talk to me with their back turned.

We're not agreeing this weekend kingcanute . I think being masked has a long history of being intimidating in western society as a cultural thing - from highwaymen to hoodies. This is on top of the communication thing.

Lots of supermarkets ask people to remove motorcycle helmets - presumably for security purposes. But they don't ask for all face coverings to be removed. Is this because it is harmless women who wear them?

KingCanute - well since it is our society rather than my society and her separate society that a veiled woman apparently wants to live in becuase she does not want to commnicate with with a Western man - how do you suggest I bridge the communication divide that the veil creates?

Am I allowed to communucate or not with a veiled Muslim woman and how will she or men/women of her family/community view that attempt to communicate?

This is such a compex issue isn't it? I think Parris's column a bit dim though. He knows there is much more to this debate and is stirring...

Of course more women are wearing the veil. The radicalisation of young Muslims happened dramatically following the Rushdie affair and again after 9/11. This is a feminised version of Muslim politics. It is nonsense to only characterise it in terms of 'custom', manners and 'our culture' as Parris. Equally, it is nonsense to characterise veiling as a simple religious practice - it is a matter of religious debate and the practice varies in Islamic countries around the world.

Leaving the complexities of the moral and cultural and political debate aside for a moment, I think a bit of perspective is worthwhile. Still there is an ethnic minority population in this country of less than 8%, most concentrated in major cities. In that 8% there are large numbers of south Asian Muslims (as well as other ethnic minorities), but in reality, unless you live in London (natch), Leeds, or Manchester for example, the average bod's chances of actually engaging with a veiled Muslim woman are miniscule. This is one of the

It sounds like a load of hubris and projected indignation to me. To what end? To stir up trouble... This is what the BNP to also: engineering a social problem where it really doesn't exist.

No we are not redandgreen but tomorrow is a new week

I agree that our cultural history has a whole hangup about masks, I agree that we have been used to communicating with facial expressions as part of the mix. I disagree - strongly - that we cannot move past this and develop ourselves. I do think it is bigotted to say "oh well I never have and I never will". Why on earth not?

I am pretty certain that most of the people here have fairly strong views on disability and learning difficulties (correct me if I am wrong). These is totally different because there is a choice involved but no different because it meets negativity and lack of understanding just because of the apperance of it.

People with Downs Syndrome cannot be a part of a loving relationship
People with low IQ cannot look after childen
Girls who wear pink can never be free women
Women who wear the veil are oppressed

They are all generalisations that have no more than a nod towards the reality and sometimes less than that. We are better than this, we are more than a poor generalistion based on fear and narrow mindedness.

Beta, I can choose to live within my friends and family if I want to, this is my right as a free human being. You can choose to try to bridge that divide if you wish. How you will be perceived is governed by how you approach but, ultimately, if you are not wanted you will be perceived badly, if you are wanted you will be perceived less badly. This is true of most cultures as I understand it.

Lupus, I completly agree re engineering social problems that do not exist.

Does anyone remember a few years ago when Jack Straw was in the headlines for asking a veiled woman (burka?) to remove it as he couldn't see her face?

Apparently it was in his constituency office and she was a local woman.

I felt very uncomfortable that anyone should be asked to take off a piece of clothing that, for them, is religious.

What next -- ask a priest to take off a dog collar because you can't see his neck

KingCanute - I think you dodged my question. How will I be perceived if I try to speak to a Muslim woman in a veil? Should I just assume the veil is a sign that communication by me to a veiled Muslim woman is forbidden but not a Muslim man? What should I do if I need to communicate with veiled Muslim woman for a good reason?

Can you also answer the last question Mathew Paris posed (underlined below).

"she should recognise that she's in a country where many people will find a masked face disturbing, and that (without meaning to) she is acting in a culturally inappropriate manner, which may offend? Do the masked women I see in the street in Whitechapel actually know this? I cannot say, because I've never spoken to them: or, rather, when I do, they look away and walk away.

This too, in Britain, is rude. Do they know? Shouldn't they?

How utterly ridiculous and downright offensive to make comparisons with people with Down's Syndrome and mask wearing.

One is an arbitrary choice based on cultural traditions, the other is a genetic condition.

Bloody hell!

And I uttelry reject as barking the suggestion that we coudl all get used to talking with people whose faces we can't see if we just like, tried a little harder and were more respectful of others.

I have never heard any outrage around people removing motorcycle helmets to enter shops. So why is it outrageous to ask someone to remove a face covering for the same or similar reasons?

I really don't want to get past the fear of masked people. I think it is a basic self-protection instinct on some level.

Interesting thread.

I have been to Damascus and yes, I would agree you would probably see more women wearing the face veil in London, than in Damascus..but again, its all down to the personal choice of the woman.

The trend in Damascus at present, is leaning more to following the Western style of dressing. On my first visit there, I had the expectation that all the women would be covered and was shocked to see so many wearing totally figure hugging jeans, revealing clothes and half the Clarins counter on their faces. I would sit in restaurants like this while DH grinned at my shock!

I think the reason for more covering in this country, is because the sexualisation of women (men as well, but lets face it, its much more female orientated) is just too much.

Although as a collective, we like to think we are in a culture where men and women are equal blah blah, we clearly are not. Thousands of women are stressing every weekend about what to wear before going out so that they look good, loads of magazines telling you what's hot, what's not, what you should be wearing...eating disorders are through the roof, the self esteem of women is, imo, lower than its ever been - I mean look at all these make over programmes...women sobbing when they get a good hair cut or an outfit that makes them look slimmer...

When you live amongst all this, as a Muslim, you start to see the reasoning behind covering and appreciate it more. Covering the face is a little too extreme for me but I guess for some women, they find it freeing in ways that others cannot understand - who are we to judge?? I'd rather see a woman in a veil than someone with skin tight hot pants and cleavage all over the place - I know which one has more respect for herself

Ilovemydog - what a stupid comparison. You don't need to see somebody's neck to communicate with them. I think you do need to see their face.

I think jack straw was perfectly right.

You're right. It was a stupid comparison. Thanks for pointing that out.

Moondog, read it for goodness sake. It is not offesnsive to make a point about different types of prejudice being similar for basic reason and people who say " oooh how terrible how could you" are taking the opportunity to deliberatly miss the point (IMhumbleO of course).

Re the barking idea that we can get to know/understand each other without facial/visual clues, I think you will find people who are visually impaired manage that on a day to day basis and are not considered "barking".

Re motor bike helmets, I am pretty sure that being to lazy to take your lid off is a bit different to being asked to remove a symbol of your religious/cultural identity.

Beta, I did my best to answer your question but as I am a white western woman who is not muslim I don't think I can do much more, sorry if that is not enough for you. Re your point about it being "rude" in britain, I refute that = utterly = it is rude, amoungst the british, yes. But it is not only the British who live in Great Britain and I do not presume to make the rules for one culture apply for another - no matter which bit of soil we are standing on (with the aforementioned not hurting/personal choice proviso)

Lol, yet another valuable contribution Nancy